DAVEH: I think you missed the point, Perry. Terry said he wouldn't
speculate, in the same sentence in which he speculated. I found that
rather curious.....don't you?
Charles Perry Locke wrote:
Dave, are you nwext going to tell us that monkeys and hoses are your
spirit brothers, too? For that matter, what biblical evidence supports
ANY of your LDS theories?
*monkeys and horses do not have a soul.*
DAVEH: ??? Aren't you speculating when you make that claim, Terry?
What Biblical evidence supports that theory?
Terry Clifton wrote:
I won't speculate, Dave, but I should point out that *monkeys and
horses do not have a soul.*
==================================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
*He knew they would sin. **He did not plan for them to fall. He
planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.*
DAVEH: I don't quite see the difference, Terry. However, I will
admit to being biased by my belief that *He did plan for them to
fall*.
/*As to their descendants missing the mark, who knows? All we can
do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error.*/
DAVEH: I respectfully disagree on this one, Terry. IMHO, it is
safe to speculate that some (if not most) of A&E's descendants
would have transgressed. Look at A&E....it didn't take them too
long to transgress. Do you think Cain, Hitler or any of the other
villains of history would have remained angels? I submit to you
that there would proportionally be very few who would not have
transgressed. Consider another example. Adults have preached to
kids ad nauseam to avoid smoking, alcohol, sex and drugs. Just
denying them such, entices many it seems. So....would you
reasonably expect any but a few of A&E's descendants to withstand
the temptations that Eve failed to avoid?
Here's something to ponder: What effect would monkeys, horses
or whatever animals inhabiting the Garden of Eden eating the
forbidden fruit have had IFF A&E hadn't?
Terry Clifton wrote:
This seems so obvious that it should be hard to miss, but if you
have been taught otherwise all your life, I suspect it would be
hard to accept.
God is omnicient, *He knew they would sin.* *He did not plan for
them to fall. He planned a remedy for the fall. Big difference.*
/*As to their descendents missing the mark, who knows? All we can
do is speculate, and speculation often leads to error.*/
=================================================================
Dave Hansen wrote:
*He wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?*
*if they had not they would have saved themselves and the rest of*
*humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has
been the human lot since then.*
DAVEH: Thank you two for your comments, both of which focus in
one facet of the A&E situation of which I am most keen. One of
my earliest religious memories was a comment a neighborhood kid
made to me in which he said A&E screwed it up for us by taking
the forbidden fruit. He explained that had they not
transgressed, we would all live forever without experiencing
death. Even though the kid was less than religious later on in
life, his comment always struck me as being intriguing, and now
you folks have sparked that fire again.
I must be missing something about your (forgive me....but let
me say, Protestant) belief about the fall. If A&E had not
transgressed, do you think none of their descendants would have
transgressed? In my experience, the best way to get a kid to do
something, is to forbid him from doing it! Don't you think that
at some point---probably much sooner than later---one of A&E's
children would have fallen? Or do you believe that of the
billions who descended from A&E, none would ever have
transgressed? Just what are the chances of that
happening.....zilch?!?!?!
So....why do most Christians blame A&E for the misery in the
world, when it was inevitable. From my perspective....not only
was it expected, but it was planned. And.......evidently you
believe that as well, since you believe Jesus was foreordained to
be our Savior from before the world was created.....that it was
planned? (Please let me know if you do not believe such.) Yet
you apparently don't believe that God wanted it to happen that
way. Do you see why your perspective perplexes me? It doesn't
seem logical. Like I said....perhaps I'm missing something about
the way you understand it.....
Judy wrote:
I think they did nto have to transgress and *if they had not they
would have saved themselves and the rest of*
*humanity all of the heartache, suffering, and misery that has
been the human lot since then.* Why would the Lord
want that for them/us?
Terry Clifton wrote:
God hates sin, Dave, more than I hate liver. I will never eat
liver, no matter how many onions you use to cover it, no matter
how many times I am given that option. God will give you the
option, but it is not His desire. I think that must be one of
the toughest parts of being God, wanting what is best for His
people, yet allowing them to make choices that bring pain and
death.
Look around you. Child molesters, burglars, robbers,
selfishness, starvation, disease.Do you think that maybe *He
wanted Adam and Eve to ruin it for everyone?*
Dave Hansen wrote:
DAVEH: One more fact from your perspective, Terry.........I
assume you believe that God did not want A&E to sin though,
even though he knew they would. Is that correct?
Terry Clifton wrote:
Just the facts, Dave. Fact one: Adam and Eve did sin.
Fact two: God hates sin. Fact three: Getting people to sin is
the top priority of Satan.
It's over. We know who to blame. Nothing to discuss.
Dave Hansen wrote:
*No. Actually, I have never heard this question discussed*
*
*DAVEH: That rather surprises me. I remember asking Perry
a similar question sometime ago, and he blew me off. That
rather surprised me at the time, but I did not pursue it.
As I understand, most Christians (including Protestants,
RCC and independents) believe that God wanted A&E not to
transgress. IFF that was actually his intention, then it
seems an interesting thought avenue to pursue. Yet, the few
who've responded seem to indicate that they have no interest
in pondering what the Lord intended to be. To me, that
seems very strange. Does it strike you as rather curious, John?
*
were A & E predestined to sin?*
DAVEH: Yes, I did ask that question. I do not know what
you folks believe about predestination and foreordination.
Since you apparently do not believe we existed in a
pre-mortal state, it would seem to me that you would not
believe in either. But....I don't want to assume such
without at least asking you first.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
*No. Actually, I have never heard this question
discussed*. You asked me to comment on a question --
perhaps a week ago, now. Aaaahhhhhh, was it "*were A & E
predestined to sin?* jd DAVEH: May I suggest another
topic of interest to me? I am curious as to if any of you
folks ever consider what would have happened IF Adam and Eve
had not transgressed. Does that discussion ever come up
with you folks?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Look -- what are we going to discuss here on TT? We
have pretty much said all that can be said about any number
of subjects. jd
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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