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From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
DH, your assessment of the world's point of view on this is neither accurate
DAVEH: I assume you saw the picture of the cemetery with all the crosses on it, John? (If not, I've posted it below.) Do you think those crosses indicate that those buried below them are Christians? No I do not. But, the world in which we live (your picture comes from that "world") knows very well that the "cross" has a reference to Christ/Christianity. Mormons may have their own historicity on this, as they do of the New World, but the "cross" over a grave is a Christian marker. And, in fact, the ACLU just might go after this symboly, as well!! There has been such discussions.
Perhaps I am wrong, but as I see it most Christians are myopic in their religious perspective . A much too general a statement to be true, I am afraid. You must know by now that the correct term is "religious perspectives" and, in such a case, "myopic" does not work, i.e. "most Christians are myopic in their many and various perspectives" just doesn't work. I think much of this is based on their Biblical steadfastness in believing in the only true living God in such a narrow sense that all others are of a minority status and their perspective is not really relevant. Again, your Christian "lump" is far too singular. Therefore, it is easy for Christians who are surrounded by other similar thinking Christians to perceive the world revolves around their Christian the ology. You are wrong, on this point, IMO. Let's lump Lance, Bill, Gary , Torrance and Barth together. One lump -- maybe Lump Numeral Uno ! but one lump. Now, because these wise men would never be identified as Mormon does not mean that the theological world revolves around their theology. For starters, each of these individuals would agree that their theology is distinctly THEIR theology (on an individual basis) --- that, as a group, the correct term should be "their theologies." The unity that is shared by these individuals is found in their high regard for the Word and their commitment to a living Christ. those two considerations are bigger than all their differing theologies.So, when most Christians see a cross, their immediate perception is one of Jesus due to their lives being immersed in Christian culture not a bad thing, by the way and hence I believe they tend to impose their presupposed believes upon others of whom they do not consider their cultural, historical or religious background. My personal view is that none on the Numero Uno list impose their beliefs on anyone. However, if any of them became Mormon, theological imposition would be the order of the day. Mormons are not alike in their theology because they are free thinking individuals in spite of the fact that they are free to think.
(I have noticed a similar effect with the way many Christians impose their religious perceptions on what they think LDS folks believe....and often times simply get it wrong due to their biases.) Here, I would agree.
Consider that only about a third (2 billion) of the world is Christian, and two-thirds (4 billion) are non-Christian.......... and only a few measly millions are Mormon !! :-)
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
............If the typical person raised in the Muslim world, or in China or India sees a cemetery filled with crosses, what do you suppose they will perceive those crosses to represent.......Christ? I suspect not, but rather would perceive a field of crosses planted in the ground such as this.....
.......to represent dead people of whatever belief background.I couldn't disagree more. How does Red China honor their dead? With cemetaries full of crosses? I think not. And why? The answer should be obvious.
Let me ask you a question, John. Let's suppose you are walking through the above cross dotted cemetery and came across a Muslim visiting the grave of one of his Muslim friends buried there. You begin chatting with him and he asks you a question....."Why did they put a cross above my Muslim friend's body?" I doubt that you would tell him that the cross means the guy beneath it is a Christian......Not a likely scenario, DH. Not at all. You give me a quarter for every Muslim grave marked without a cross and I will give you a hundred bucks for every Muslim grave with a cross and let's see who gets to retire first !!!
Now Bishop, I don't mind if you still disagree with me on thi s, as I'm sure you have a strong emotional attachment to the cross. But consider....IF you believe those above crosses represent the Christians who are buried there, and I don't then how many of those crosses represent Mormon Christians buried beneath them? Not relevant since "I don't." There have been more than a few TTers who want to deny LDS folks the right to call themselves Christians. Now it seems some of those same anti-Mormons want to claim that having a cross planted over their dead bodies indicates they are now Christians? Not me. Before death, those who do not subscribe to some TTers' theology are pagan and not worthy of the Christian moniker. yes, this is true from some TTers .......Then plant a cross over their grave and suddenly they become C hristian because of the symbol above their bodies??? I don't think any TTer believes this. What changed?.....let me answer that, JD.........just death. Which is what I am saying....the cross represents death. If we are still talking about the cross of Christ, absolutely no Protestant I know believes this. If you are here on TT to learn of the thinking of Protestants, you are miss'en up, DH !!! Big time !!!
regarding the relevant thingy. DH writes:
Some TTers criticize LDS theology for using symbols that to us represent Jesus in all his glory. That those symbols may be similar in some ways to symbols used by other pagan groups really doesn't matter. Nor does it seem to matter that many Christians have adopted pagan symbols to represent Christian principles and beliefs. To us, the meaning of our symbols is clean, pure and relevant to our theology, belief and faith in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.I am not sure what you are doing in the above, but my use of "relevant" applied to your statement that the world viewed the "cross" different that us Christians. What symbols are "relevant" to you as a Mormon was not in view.
Does it bother you in the least when TTers attack us for our sacred symbols? I suspect not, but I could be wrong. Your religion is distinctly different from mine, but that does not mean that I have a right or a responsibility to act like an ass when it comes to a discussion of your symbols and sense of sacredness. ... yes, it bothers me.
However, when I acutely and truthfully point out that the cross was a devilish device constructed by the enemies of God to torture and kill his son, and then correctly point out that there are a lot of people buried beneath crosses who those same critical TTers would never consider to be Christians.......the n I am criticized for denigrating the cross, and those who believe in the cross. Such is not my complaint. Doesn't that seem just a little bit hypocritical to you, John? If that is the reason for their criticism of you on this point, my answer is "yes." Mormon TTers are just expected to take critical comments made on TT and be ashamed of their inferior beliefs, and not expected to point out the deficiencies in the logic of those TTers who are critical of Mormonism. I think you are given a great deal of freedom to make your arguments. You disagree??? Is this not a prime example of Christian hypocrisy? To me it seems like a double st andard, and that IMHO Paster is imminently relevant! My oh My -- we have taken this word "relevant " and have gone in a totally different direction than with my original usage. You have my post. Refresh your memory on my use of "neither accurate" and "irelevant." And keep smiling !!!!!!!!!!!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Yes ! and , by the way, DH, your assessment of the world's point of view on this is neither accurate or relevant.and this statement borders on insulting:One of the weirdest songs I ever heard was The Old Rugged Cross. It seemed to glorify the cross in a negative way. I doubt the Lord even to this day is overly fond of that old rugged cross. :>)BlainerbI have to say something here -- both of you have made it clear (and I am not angry , by the way) that your stay here on TT has given you nothing in terms of reason for crossing over. Well, consider your failure in this regard, as well. With as much variety as exists here amongst us Christians, you would think someone would consider the Mormon religion. But this latest discussion, while revealing, would surely close the door to any serious student of the Bible. To put down "death" and the "cross" is to simply miss the point of the life of Christ here on this earth .............. and miss the mark by a wide margin !!!jd
