I think this position, while admirable, faces a big uphill battle. The
ability of companies to police the conduct of those who work for them in the
conduct of that work has, to my knowledge, never been seriously contested in
this country from a free speech perspective. Where it has been fought has been
in areas of discrimination based on race, sex, marital status, pregnancy and
other factors. And those fights were relatively recent, and not easy for the
positions that prevailed.
I think this is one of many examples where the American perspective on
capitalism triumphs over any aspirations it has regarding free expression. If
one's free speech affects a company's bottom line (directly or indirectly), and
that individual has some kind of economic relationship with that company, the
relationship will be adjusted or ended.
Yes, advocacy directed at these companies is also free expression, but it is
done because those expressing their viewpoint expect the money matters more
than any principle. While those who coined the phrase 'marketplace of ideas'
had something else in mind, today it's about how the ideas influence the
dollars in the market.
David
On Friday, February 4, 2022, 01:54:45 PM PST, PGage <[email protected]>
wrote:
Again, right. Spotify is free to ban Rogan or not, Neil and Joni are free to
demand either Rogan gets banned or they take down their music, you and I are
free to support or boycott Spotify depending on whatever.
I’m not talking about what is legal, I’m talking about what is good. I am
arguing that those who support a free society *ought* to defend the expression
of unpopular speech (that does not meet certain criteria of danger).
Of course, as you say, others are free to disagree with me.
On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 1:22 PM Kevin M. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 12:56 PM PGage <[email protected]> wrote:
So, it’s true there is no violation of the 1st Amendment at stake. But Free
Expression as a value goes deeper than that. Unpopular speech should be
protected whenever possible. Spotify banning Joe Rogan today could easily
become Disney banning Lin Manuel Miranda in three years.
Spotify didn’t ban Joe Rogan, and even if they did, a company is free to react
to public criticism. They are free to host/pay whomever they want to, and they
are free to stop paying whomever they want to… or they were when Rogan was
based in California… I don’t know whether Texas is an at-will state. Free
expression includes criticism of free speech, and that’s what happened here.
Neil Young used his freedom of speech to influence an outcome.
On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 10:05 AM Kevin M. <[email protected]> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 9:14 AM PGage <[email protected]> wrote:
As I posted earlier, I don’t disagree with JS that much. My main disagreement
is with his assessment that Rogan is not an ideologue (perhaps that word is too
sophisticated to apply to Rogan).
But I do agree that it is dangerous in a free society to start restricting
speech we don’t like - even when we are right. I despise Rogan and Carlson,
despised Limbaugh. But they have a right to spew their filth (as I have a right
to ignore them).
We do go round and round on this concept, but Rogan’s speech is not infringed.
For better or worse, we purport to exist in a free market economy. Neil Young
made a personal professional choice to not associate with a company responsible
for promoting (in fact paying extra for) speech known/proven to be factually
inaccurate, conspiratorial in nature, and potentially harmful if taken
seriously. The market also responded. Then the business in question announced
changes, the person in question pledged to change.
It is a rare instance where society prompted a change. Not censorship. Not
cancel culture. Nothing was banned. Nobody was woke. Nobody was a snowflake. A
market correction occurred.
You can’t yell fire in a crowded theater, you can’t make jokes about bombs in
an airport, so perhaps there are things you should not be able to say during a
deadly pandemic. Let’s specify those things (perhaps something like: “can not
present as fact health information found to be seriously harmful to public
health “, though even that is probably too broad. Under that, anyone advocating
abstinence only sex education would be banned).
Once you identify a criteria, then you don’t rush to ban communicators, their
employers warn them of violations, and repeated violations lead to termination.
On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 5:16 AM Doug Eastick <[email protected]> wrote:
Agreed. I've been done with him for quite a while now.
/Doug
[email protected]
On Fri., Feb. 4, 2022, 4:37 a.m. 'Dave Sikula' via TVorNotTV,
<[email protected]> wrote:
I used to be a big fan of Stewart, but even in those TDS days, he constantly
tried to both-sides almost everything. This is just the latest step in that
evolution.
--Dave Sikula
On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 2:51:12 PM UTC-8 [email protected] wrote:
Jon Stewart sides with Joe Rogan.
https://www.rawstory.com/jon-stewart-backs-joe-rogan-as-musicians-continue-to-leave-spotify-this-overreaction-is-a-mistake/
On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 1:25 PM PGage <[email protected]> wrote:
This is such a stinking pile of bullshit.
A. It is very unlikely that he will do even the almost microscopically small
steps he promises to take here.
B. This is not a case of a one man shop inadvertently putting dangerous
material out there. He has been told over and over by ,any experts the
information is false and dangerous, and has shown glee in disregarding them. If
he was inviting Pro Nazi guests (and, I don’t assume that he has not been) and
got spanked by Spotify for tanking their share value while they pay him a shit
load of cash, it would certainly not be acceptable to vaguely promise to get
Nazis who dress better and to invite some non Nazi guests after them.
C. I am not in favor of banning people like Rogan from social media and network
sites, unless they meet some specific “shouting fire in a crowded theater”
criteria. While there is real choice between Neil and Joni on the one hand and
Rogan on the other, I do wish that those speaking out against things like COVID
and Voting and Election Misinformation would be more specific and precise when
calling for mis-informers to be banned, citing what really must be extreme
cases that meet rare criteria.
On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 12:44 PM Kevin M. <[email protected]> wrote:
Rogan semi-apologized… claims he’ll book better guests and get better informed
on topics he babbles about. I have my doubts.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/31/joe-rogan-apologizes-to-spotify-and-musicians.html
On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 6:12 PM Kevin M. <[email protected]> wrote:
Neil Young orders Spotify to remove his music until they get rid of all the
anti-vax garbage on the streaming service.
https://twitter.com/rollingstone/status/1485757517523308548?s=21
--
Kevin M. (RPCV)
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