So I am under no illusion that Spotify has stood by Rogan out of a principled commitment to the values of free expression. They are doing it to make money obviously.
Also, I don’t think the analogy between Joe Rogan and disinformation on the one hand and things like Big Tobacco or slavery on the other is accurate. The ability to express opinion is the essence of what it means to live in a free society. The correctness of these opinions is irrelevant to the right to express them. Some opinions are not allowed, not because they are incorrect, but because their expression is itself a direct danger. This is probably true of some things in Rogan’s show (I wouldn’t know). What we need is not a campaign to ban specific people we don’t like, but an effort to articulate specific criteria that identify harmful messages, and then use these criteria to target and eliminate them. We have done this with things like child pornography. We tolerate pornography, but not when it contains children or encourages sex with children. These regulations are far from perfect, but are a reasonable effort to both protect against a real harm and protect unpopular speech. It is now illegal to have slaves, which required the death of a million Americans. But it is not illegal to express support for slavery, or to tell lies about slavery. On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 at 8:36 PM Kevin M. <drunkbastar...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 2:43 PM 'David Bruggeman' via TVorNotTV < > tvornottv@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> I think this position, while admirable, faces a big uphill battle. The >> ability of companies to police the conduct of those who work for them in >> the conduct of that work has, to my knowledge, never been seriously >> contested in this country from a free speech perspective. Where it has >> been fought has been in areas of discrimination based on race, sex, marital >> status, pregnancy and other factors. And those fights were relatively >> recent, and not easy for the positions that prevailed. >> >> I think this is one of many examples where the American perspective on >> capitalism triumphs over any aspirations it has regarding free expression. >> If one's free speech affects a company's bottom line (directly or >> indirectly), and that individual has some kind of economic relationship >> with that company, the relationship will be adjusted or ended. >> >> Yes, advocacy directed at these companies is also free expression, but it >> is done because those expressing their viewpoint expect the money matters >> more than any principle. While those who coined the phrase 'marketplace of >> ideas' had something else in mind, today it's about how the ideas influence >> the dollars in the market. >> > > I would add that, historically, American society/culture almost > exclusively advances only when there is economic incentive to do so. > Slavery didn’t end because it was immoral… it was always immoral. Women > didn’t get the right to vote because they suddenly became equal to men. We > are now faced with the economic reality that disinformation is profitable > (hardly a new concept, but propaganda purely for profit is less common than > political propaganda). Until companies and individuals feel economic > pressure to stop deliberately spreading lies, they won’t stop. I liken it > to Big Tobacco being forced to concede the health risks of smoking. Joe > Rogan is Big Tobacco. > > > >> David >> >> On Friday, February 4, 2022, 01:54:45 PM PST, PGage <pga...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> Again, right. Spotify is free to ban Rogan or not, Neil and Joni are free >> to demand either Rogan gets banned or they take down their music, you and I >> are free to support or boycott Spotify depending on whatever. >> >> I’m not talking about what is legal, I’m talking about what is good. I am >> arguing that those who support a free society *ought* to defend the >> expression of unpopular speech (that does not meet certain criteria of >> danger). >> >> Of course, as you say, others are free to disagree with me. >> >> On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 1:22 PM Kevin M. <drunkbastar...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 12:56 PM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> So, it’s true there is no violation of the 1st Amendment at stake. But >> Free Expression as a value goes deeper than that. Unpopular speech should >> be protected whenever possible. Spotify banning Joe Rogan today could >> easily become Disney banning Lin Manuel Miranda in three years. >> >> >> Spotify didn’t ban Joe Rogan, and even if they did, a company is free to >> react to public criticism. They are free to host/pay whomever they want to, >> and they are free to stop paying whomever they want to… or they were when >> Rogan was based in California… I don’t know whether Texas is an at-will >> state. Free expression includes criticism of free speech, and that’s what >> happened here. Neil Young used his freedom of speech to influence an >> outcome. >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 10:05 AM Kevin M. <drunkbastar...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 9:14 AM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> As I posted earlier, I don’t disagree with JS that much. My main >> disagreement is with his assessment that Rogan is not an ideologue (perhaps >> that word is too sophisticated to apply to Rogan). >> >> But I do agree that it is dangerous in a free society to start >> restricting speech we don’t like - even when we are right. I despise Rogan >> and Carlson, despised Limbaugh. But they have a right to spew their filth >> (as I have a right to ignore them). >> >> >> We do go round and round on this concept, but Rogan’s speech is not >> infringed. >> >> For better or worse, we purport to exist in a free market economy. Neil >> Young made a personal professional choice to not associate with a company >> responsible for promoting (in fact paying extra for) speech known/proven to >> be factually inaccurate, conspiratorial in nature, and potentially harmful >> if taken seriously. The market also responded. Then the business in >> question announced changes, the person in question pledged to change. >> >> It is a rare instance where society prompted a change. Not censorship. >> Not cancel culture. Nothing was banned. Nobody was woke. Nobody was a >> snowflake. A market correction occurred. >> >> >> >> You can’t yell fire in a crowded theater, you can’t make jokes about >> bombs in an airport, so perhaps there are things you should not be able to >> say during a deadly pandemic. Let’s specify those things (perhaps something >> like: “can not present as fact health information found to be seriously >> harmful to public health “, though even that is probably too broad. Under >> that, anyone advocating abstinence only sex education would be banned). >> >> Once you identify a criteria, then you don’t rush to ban communicators, >> their employers warn them of violations, and repeated violations lead to >> termination. >> >> On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 5:16 AM Doug Eastick <east...@eastick.ca> wrote: >> >> Agreed. I've been done with him for quite a while now. >> >> >> >> /Doug >> east...@mcd.on.ca >> >> On Fri., Feb. 4, 2022, 4:37 a.m. 'Dave Sikula' via TVorNotTV, < >> tvornottv@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> >> I used to be a big fan of Stewart, but even in those TDS days, he >> constantly tried to both-sides almost everything. This is just the latest >> step in that evolution. >> >> --Dave Sikula >> >> On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 2:51:12 PM UTC-8 steve...@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >> Jon Stewart sides with Joe Rogan. >> >> >> https://www.rawstory.com/jon-stewart-backs-joe-rogan-as-musicians-continue-to-leave-spotify-this-overreaction-is-a-mistake/ >> >> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 1:25 PM PGage <pga...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> This is such a stinking pile of bullshit. >> >> A. It is very unlikely that he will do even the almost microscopically >> small steps he promises to take here. >> >> B. This is not a case of a one man shop inadvertently putting dangerous >> material out there. He has been told over and over by ,any experts the >> information is false and dangerous, and has shown glee in disregarding >> them. If he was inviting Pro Nazi guests (and, I don’t assume that he has >> not been) and got spanked by Spotify for tanking their share value while >> they pay him a shit load of cash, it would certainly not be acceptable to >> vaguely promise to get Nazis who dress better and to invite some non Nazi >> guests after them. >> >> C. I am not in favor of banning people like Rogan from social media and >> network sites, unless they meet some specific “shouting fire in a crowded >> theater” criteria. While there is real choice between Neil and Joni on the >> one hand and Rogan on the other, I do wish that those speaking out against >> things like COVID and Voting and Election Misinformation would be more >> specific and precise when calling for mis-informers to be banned, citing >> what really must be extreme cases that meet rare criteria. >> >> On Mon, 31 Jan 2022 at 12:44 PM Kevin M. <drunkba...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Rogan semi-apologized… claims he’ll book better guests and get better >> informed on topics he babbles about. I have my doubts. >> >> >> https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/31/joe-rogan-apologizes-to-spotify-and-musicians.html >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 6:12 PM Kevin M. <drunkba...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Neil Young orders Spotify to remove his music until they get rid of all >> the anti-vax garbage on the streaming service. >> >> https://twitter.com/rollingstone/status/1485757517523308548?s=21 >> >> -- >> Kevin M. (RPCV) >> >> -- >> Kevin M. (RPCV) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TVorNotTV" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to tvornottv+...@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKgmY4CXBiHXTrjscYsGguTLkj8UtHE5qK7rT7kk5F22GG3TmA%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKgmY4CXBiHXTrjscYsGguTLkj8UtHE5qK7rT7kk5F22GG3TmA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TVorNotTV" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to tvornottv+...@googlegroups.com. >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKGtkYKNGVMbgh%2B_hBwOR-08KHQLBG%2Bcj%2BELCeJvWSnUZ4GF1A%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKGtkYKNGVMbgh%2B_hBwOR-08KHQLBG%2Bcj%2BELCeJvWSnUZ4GF1A%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TVorNotTV" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/74288ca0-2899-47ef-9569-2924fbce06a4n%40googlegroups.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/74288ca0-2899-47ef-9569-2924fbce06a4n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TVorNotTV" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAK5Q1BoBQ8sgKt4tzm1TUM_cCKOBrYnaCZcNAN65y-mPv%2B-eEQ%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAK5Q1BoBQ8sgKt4tzm1TUM_cCKOBrYnaCZcNAN65y-mPv%2B-eEQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> -- >> Sent from Gmail Mobile >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TVorNotTV" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to tvornottv+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKGtkYLdDuz9wS%2B6X3U637mzx4uZBT5WBQ6_5XLsT-_tiVUXtw%40mail.gmail.com >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tvornottv/CAKGtkYLdDuz9wS%2B6X3U637mzx4uZBT5WBQ6_5XLsT-_tiVUXtw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> -- >> Kevin M. 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