Isn't that what thin clients are for? To hold the app on the client end and only convey data. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Schalk van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "U2 Users Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 6:51 AM Subject: Re: GUI as nice as character-based
> Dawn and all, > > Another aspect of GUI, which we sure have to consider, is data > communication lines. > Our operation is spread over 1000 kilometres, and sending GUI screens back > and forth will certainly clog our lines. Except when you make use of local > intelligence. The volume of data sent to paint a GUI screen must certainly > be a factor of 50 more than with CUI. (?) > > Schalk > > On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:02:31 +0100, Brian Leach > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > To go back to Dawn's original post - > > > > Dawn, > > > > I've been writing GUI applications for UniVerse for about 15 years now. > > Some > > have worked, some have - well - been learning experiences. > > > > You shouldn't really compare GUI and character based. Why? Because then > > you > > inevitably start to think of the GUI in character based terms - the > > arrangement of controls on a form, or the addition of some buttons. > > That's > > my main beef with 'intelligent' terminals - they obscure the real > > picture. > > > > GUI is not about what you put on the screen. It's about the flow of > > information, and how that flow best suits the application in question. > > Data > > entry is part of that flow, but only part: character based is good for > > some > > data entry and for administration, but a good application is also about > > navigation, culture and the ease of finding information again. > > > > Here are two very different examples: > > > > I did a freight forwarding package for a company that previously was > > entirely paper based. They took a - let's say "flexible" - approach to > > rules, validations, pricing, descriptions etc - and wanted to keep that. > > Providing a traditional system, with a nailed down design and entry > > screens > > just wouldn't work for them. In fact I tried that first as a prototype, > > and > > it didn't. Not in their culture. > > So I designed a system that worked the same way as their forms. Every > > page > > matched the standard forms they used, except that information > > automatically > > infilled, was sent to their billing systems, collated to their work flow > > for > > follow ups and diarising etc ... But all invisibly. What they 'saw' were > > the > > forms they had used throughout. Even the validation was fairly soft, and > > consisted mainly of highlighting things that were suspect. Annoying > > popups > > were kept to an absolute minimum, text and codes expanded directly from > > typing, and generally the whole thing designed to look and feel as > > unobtrusive as possible: nothing to interrupt their work flow. I couldn't > > have done that with a character based system because it couldn't have > > represented the compexity of some of the forms (try doing an airway bill > > or > > customs declaration form and you'll see what I mean). > > > > As a more traditional example, I have a project management system that I > > both designed and use. This is based on drill down principles, allowing > > me > > to track projects, modules, scheduled and tasks. Here the advantage of a > > GUI > > is persistence and workflow: because a GUI allows me to have multiple > > windows open modelessly, I can track down from the projects or work lists > > into the individual tasks whilst keeping the lists (heirarchically > > arranged) > > still visible, so I don't have to keep closing down windows or > > reselecting: > > generally much more efficient. I can also display more, since most of the > > time I am interested in viewing information rather than changing it - > > and at > > the viewing stage I can use smaller fonts to display things that when > > amended need larger screen estate. The diary is a case in point: I can > > use > > colours and smaller fonts to show different entries in a way that a green > > screen application wouldn't accommodate. And naturally I keep a document > > path, so any documents/project plans/applications or other materials > > connected with a task can be opened directly on my desktop. > > > > I have seen good GUIs: ones that improve process and work flow and make > > life > > genuinely easier. > > I have seen bad GUIs that interrupt work flow, slow people down (bl**dy > > mice > > and message boxes). > > > > Good GUI works. > > Bad GUI is bad bad bad. > > > > But too often GUI is blamed for the lack of vision or competence of those > > implementing it. > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > Behalf Of Dawn M. Wolthuis > > Sent: 20 April 2004 02:03 > > To: 'U2 Users Discussion List' > > Subject: RE: GUI as nice as character-based > > > > Citrix and I don't get along -- too many bad memories trying to set up > > ODBC > > so that client machines ... anyway, I know that there are reasons that > > shops > > use it, just as there are reasons I hope not to have to touch the product > > again ;-) > > > > And I didn't intend for Java to be the only possible solution to fit the > > rules -- I just tried to be sure to rule out the V-word ;-) [Just a > > little > > joke there -- I actually think that Visage is likely an excellent choice > > for > > Microsoft-centric sites and I'm a Ross-fan myself, remember] > > > > Cheers! --dawn > > > > Dawn M. Wolthuis > > Tincat Group, Inc. > > www.tincat-group.com > > > > Take and give some delight today. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > Behalf Of Ross Ferris > > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 7:21 PM > > To: U2 Users Discussion List > > Subject: RE: GUI as nice as character-based > > > > Dawn, > > > > Citrix Server would break DLG (Dawn's Law of GUI) rule 4 anyway, as you > > would need to pre-install Citrix client software on most platforms. > > > > BTW Dawn, do you have a mathematic proof of DLG ? > > > > Just wondering, 'cause just like the "Great Date Debate", many may be > > happy > > to 'bend' these rules because they don't apply to the environment they > > use ? > > > > For example, Citrix has MANY other advantages, especially in larger > > organizations, when it comes to issues like securing the desktop, and > > centralized updates etc. > > > > In Wyatt's case, he can simply install SmartTerm (oops, Windows only > > product, breaks rule 1 - hmm, but with Citrix his client 'can' be a Mac > > ?!!? > > Your "proof" could be 'interesting' ?!?!) onto his Server, and it then > > requires no pre-installation. > > > > He can have a link on a web page to download the Citrix client software > > .... > > does this 'break' your 'rules', or does it fit ? > > > > Of course Citrix Server/Terminal Server has an important place in larger > > enterprises, addressing issues like security, desktop lockdown, > > patch/update > > management, software distribution etc - which transcend DLG > > > > Also with your "rule revision" below, as with the original DLG, you still > > haven't included the "J" word, which I believe is an implicit (and > > understood) requirement for DLG !?! > > > > Ross Ferris > > Stamina Software > > Visage - an Evolution in Software Development > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> On Behalf Of Dawn M. Wolthuis > >> Sent: Tuesday, 20 April 2004 5:14 AM > >> To: 'U2 Users Discussion List' > >> Subject: RE: GUI as nice as character-based > >> > >> Ah, I should add or modify one of the requirements -- when I indicated > >> that there needs to be no setup on the client, I should put that in the > >> "client tier" and consider citrix servers to be application clients, of > >> sorts. So, for my purposes (though not for everyone), a citrix server > >> is not an option. > >> > >> 1. Client Tier (no setup) > >> 2. Http Server Tier (could include app server, such as tomcat or EJB > >> container such as Eclipse or WebSphere) 3. Database Server Tier > >> > >> I'll clarify the requirements to add "no more tiers". > >> > >> --dawn > >> > >> Dawn M. Wolthuis > >> Tincat Group, Inc. > >> www.tincat-group.com > >> > >> Take and give some delight today. > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> On Behalf Of Buffington, Wyatt > >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 1:57 PM > >> To: U2 Users Discussion List > >> Subject: RE: GUI as nice as character-based > >> > >> We have been using a product called SmarTerm from Esker. It allows us > >> to displays screen close to GUI that is easily configureable by the end > >> user with little to no programming. It allows for HotSpots which appear > >> as a button on the screen which the user can click on. Buttons are a > >> list of things that a user can do that are mundane or repetitive, these > >> can save wear and tear on the old fingers. It has a GUI pop up calendar > >> that can be invoked from the host and the date returned back to the > >> host. The user can change the colors on the screen to match their > >> preferences. Email addresses and http links are highlighted differently > >> and can be clickable. You can create you our macros that can be run > >> from a Button. We use triggers to change our screen colors depending on > >> which account we are in. > >> > >> If anyone is interested in a screen shot of what can be done. Email me > >> offline at [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> We are currently using Version 11.0.5 on both PCs and Citrix Servers. I > >> am also in the process of testing 12.1 Beta. > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> On Behalf Of Mark Johnson > >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 1:45 PM > >> To: U2 Users Discussion List > >> Subject: Re: GUI as nice as character-based > >> > >> > >> Dawn: Good luck in your search for this holy grail. Lemme know if such > >> a silver bullet is found. > >> > >> I've been hunting for years. > >> > >> Mark Johnson > >> > >> ---- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Dawn M. Wolthuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 2:17 PM > >> Subject: GUI as nice as character-based > >> > >> > >> I haven't gotten through all of the postings in the GUI thread as yet, > >> but am working on the question of how to write a GUI that is as good as > >> a "green screen" from the perspective of folks currently using a green > >> screen application. I saw hints at that, but nothing that tackled it > >> from the standpoint of being able to use any tools on the market today > >> to accomplish this (no need to retain databasic code, for example). > >> > >> What could be used to actually replace, completely, the character > >> screens? > >> > >> Requirements: > >> 0) work with U2 as multiuser databases > >> > >> 1) Be able to use any Windows, new Mac (unix) or Linux client > >> 2) Have graphically attractive & colorful screens, looking enough like > >> standard GUIs (M$, in particular) that users would understand the use > >> of icons, etc. > >> 3) Respond to keystrokes by users -- not only to the click of a "submit" > >> button > >> 4) Require no preparation of the client computers in advance of using > >> the software, likely directing user to a web page. > >> 5) "type ahead" can be done so that the user is not waiting constantly > >> for the computer to respond > >> 6) Heads down data entry folks are as happy with this as they were with > >> their green screens when they first got those and have only minor > >> complaints if converting now from a green screen, none of substance > >> > >> What are the options -- who has written or seen such a GUI? --dawn > >> > >> Dawn M. Wolthuis > >> Tincat Group, Inc. > >> www.tincat-group.com > >> > >> Take and give some delight today. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> u2-users mailing list > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > >> > >> -- > >> u2-users mailing list > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > >> -- > >> u2-users mailing list > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > >> > >> -- > >> u2-users mailing list > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > >> > >> > >> --- > >> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >> Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 15/04/2004 > >> > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 15/04/2004 > > > > -- > > u2-users mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > > > -- > > u2-users mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > This email was checked by MessageLabs SkyScan before entering Microgen. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > This email was checked on leaving Microgen for viruses, similar > > malicious code and inappropriate content by MessageLabs SkyScan. > > > > DISCLAIMER > > > > This email and any attachments are confidential and may also be > > privileged. > > > > If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender > > immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other > > person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information. > > > > In the event of any technical difficulty with this email, please > > contact the sender or [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Microgen Information Management Solutions > > http://www.microgen.co.uk > > > > -- > Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ > > --------------------------------------------------------- > GWK BEPERK/LIMITED (REG: 1997/022252/06) > POSBUS 47 PO BOX 8730 > DOUGLAS > > Direkteure/Directors: NB Jacobs, FJ Lawrence, J v/d S Botes, > JH Coetzee, JGD Smit, JF Jacobs, AO Müller, JW Smit, > JP Snyman, JG Stander, JH van Dyk(MD/BD), JG Jacobs, A Müller, > Sekr/Secr: E van Niekerk. > > Hierdie e-pos is onderworpe aan 'n vrywaring beskikbaar by: > http://www.gwk.co.za/DisclaimerVrywaring.asp > This e-mail is subjected to the disclaimer that can be viewed at: > http://www.gwk.co.za/DisclaimerVrywaring.asp > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > -- > u2-users mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users > -- u2-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.oliver.com/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
