I think the only serious takeaway from this thread is that anyone's religion-based views on homosexuality (or anything else at all) can not and must not be considered by our legal system as anything more than that persons' random interpretation of someone ELSE'S interpretation of some widely published bronze-age superstition.
That is, admitting poppycock as evidence or argument trivializes our whole legal process.
As a side note, the intimacy between my partner and myself is not a gift from any higher power, as that concept remains undefined.
Plus, we're pretty sure it has to do with us autonomously making choices, conscious or not quite, like loving each other and living together, etc.
But to your point, I see absolutely your civil rights as recognized by the laws of this country, and I'll raise you one piece of legislation to articulate a guarantee of equal rights for homosexuals.
I'd like to offer some additional reading on the interpretation (or historical accuracy) of scripture, including some titles by the previously mentioned Elaine Pagels: /The Gnostic Gospels <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679724532/qid=1077249956//ref=pd_ka_1/102-7050443-1111335?v=glance&s=books&n=507846>/ and /The Origin of Satan <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679731180/ref=pd_sim_books_4/102-7050443-1111335?v=glance&s=books>/, as well as/ The Nag Hammadi Library <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060669330/qid=1077250051/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-7050443-1111335?v=glance&s=books>/ for some very interesting lost documents from the Gospel period. /The Hiram Key <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1931412758/qid=1077250351/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-7050443-1111335?v=glance&s=books>/ is a rollicking tale that examines the much-more-ancient roots of much Judaic tradition. (Don't be put off by the talk about Freemasonry; they really have some good findings.) The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671797972/qid=1077250483/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-7050443-1111335?v=glance&s=books> is also enjoyable and enlightening.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm sorry, Dan, but scripture is not clear on this subject. Just as the Bible has been manipulated to justify slavery, colonization of less developed peoples, and opression of women, scripture is still being manipulated to oppress gays and lesbians.
Manipulation number one: Sodomy is about homosexuality. The sin of the citizens of the cities of Sodom and Gomorah is about not offering hospitality to those who needed it. If the men of Sodom were queer, why would Lot have offered them his virgin daughters in place of God's messangers? If the sin of Sodom and Gamorah was homosexuality, why is it written in Ezekiel: "the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy." (Ezekiel 16:14) Does this sound at all like George W, Dick Cheney, Enron, Haliburton, and Walmart to anybody else on the list?
If Sodom and Gommorrah were condemned because of homosexuality, why did Jesus who was the Christ say " But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet, we wipe off against you; nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.' I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on that day for Sodom than for that town". ? (Luke 10:10-12)
Manipulation number 2: Condemnation of homosexuality under Levitical Code: Lots of stuff is condemned, and even deemed abhorrent in God's eye, under Levitical code. Got kids? Did they ever tell you how much they dislike you in a fit of disagreement? Why are they still alive-God tells you to kill them.( Leviticus 20:8) Got pimples, menstruating, had a wet dream? Bad news! Your brother dies, guess what? You have to marry your sister-in-law. Already married, no problem. Polgamy's OK in the Old Testament. Look at the story of Abraham. But don't dare be different.
OK, so we're down to the New Testament writings. Romans 1:24-26 is concerned with people exchanging the "natural way" for "unnatural ways". I know that God creates us in more than just heterosexual men and women. I know that there are person born with both male and female genitals. I know that before I knew a whit about sex, I knew that other guys turned me on. For me to exchange my natural way, I would have to try to "go straight"
But if this proscription were against guys who were created heterosexual, who in their need to always be "getting some", who cheated on their wives by being " on the down low" , that would be exchanging natural ways just as much as it would be for me to leave my husband of 32 years to make a life with a woman.
Intimacy is a gift that originates outside ourselves. I believe it originates from our Creator. I believe it is our Creator who makes our intimate relationships holy, not our churches or our government. I don't need civil recognition of the blessings God has bestowed on Gary and I. But we are entitled to the same civil rights as any other heterosexual relationship as it is recognized under the law of this country.
For anyone ineterested enough to want to read more, I recommend /Rescuing the Bible from Fundemetalism /by John Shelby Spong, and /The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology /by Mark D. Jordan (U of Chicago Press, 1997) .
Peace and blessings,
Fred Wolfe
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