Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list

[Frank]

You go, Wilma!!

Frankus
Sleek. Edgy. Infinitely flexible

On Jul 30, 2007, at 12:18 PM, Wilma de Soto wrote:

I don’t think Penn is sponsoring the group. What I meant is they are the owner of the domain in which gives them a certain responsibility for its content, doesn’t it.

As for your second point about group credibility, it is rather the appearance of credibility. That is to say, if I was looking for a listserv forum i this area and I ran across the UC Neighbors and saw upenn.edu in its address, I would probably think if I didn’t know better that this Neighbors listserv is affiliated with the university because it is under their domain.

If I see a forum under cbsnews.com, or citibank.com or harvard.edu, I would most likely assume these would under their domains and subject to all regulations therein.

Would one be wrong to assume that if one didn’t know the whole story?

To specifically answer your question, “Would your words, or mine, or anyone else's really become more credible because they were posted on a discussion group that happened to be on a UPenn server? “

My answer would be no. I have advance information as to the nature of the group, how it was formed etc., but many others would not and that makes a difference.

Wilma

On 7/30/07 10:12 AM, "Dave Axler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Wilma,

The answer to your first question can only come from Kyle, not me.

However, I have used discussion groups based at both Yahoo and MySpace, and can state from experience that they do have disadvantages: Most notably, there are too many advertisements, both on the listserv/group pages themselves, and in email one receives as a side effect of joining the group. Yahoo is especially notorious for the latter -- one has to locate the special "preferences" page and manually opt out of receiving such mail. I suspect, but don't know for certain, that Google-based groups also involve advertisements.

As for the second question, I think it is based on two false assumptions:

1) Penn is "sponsoring" the new group.

Providing host services is not sponsorship, regardless of whether the group is hosted on Penn's servers, or Yahoo's, or Google's, or an old Mac 8100 sitting in somebody's basement. To claim otherwise is analogous to holding the phone company responsible for what people say when they make calls.

2) A group hosted by Penn is more credible than one hosted elsewhere.

I don't think groups as a whole are "credible". What matters to me is the credibility of individual posters based on what they say and how well those statements agree with my own knowledge and understanding of the world. Would your words, or mine, or anyone else's really become more credible because they were posted on a discussion group that happened to be on a UPenn server? I don't think anyone here -- including those with whom I sometimes disagree -- is that foolish and/or gullible, and I don't think new neighbors would be, either.

--dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Wilma de Soto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Dave Axler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv <univcity@list.purple.com>

Sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 7:21 am
Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list

True enough. If I could set up a listserv on any of the servers mentioned (Google, MySpace, Yahoo) by you and Andy, why didn’t Kyle?

Having a “community listserv’ with a upenn sponsored URL would lend more weight and credibility than one set up at purple.com or yahoo or myspace, wouldn’t it?

I were a new resident to University City and wanted to go online with neighbors, I certainly would think so.

On 7/30/07 1:36 AM, "Dave Axler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Yep, and you can get similar free services from Yahoo, AOL, MySpace, and a variety of other places. The exact features vary from host to host -- some let you make files and/or pictures available, some offer public calendar features for group events, all have some variations on how the messages are moderated (if at all) -- but the location of an ISP is, for a discussion list, generally not a sign of who

"owns" and/or "controls" it.


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Diller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Wilma de Soto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Cc: Anthony West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; UnivCity listserv <univcity@list.purple.com>

Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 8:08 pm
Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list

You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs "groups."

http://groups.google.com/


-andy diller

Wilma de Soto wrote:

> I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server

> and lend him an IP address?

> > Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and

> loan me an IP address?  Who gets to do this?  Must one be directly

> affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for

> you?

> > > On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, "Anthony West" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >> Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening.
>>

>> Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or >> the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of >> this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical >> address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that >> change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over

>> UC-list as we know it?
>>
>> -- Tony West
>>
>> Andrew Diller wrote:

>>> If I may---- Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova!

>>>

>>> For some context, there are two things you need to know about any

>>> computer on the Internet:
>>>
>>> 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain
>>> 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?)
>>>

>>> Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP >>> addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet. >>> When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an >>> IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com) to that particular

>>> ip address, and then people can use your server.
>>>

>>> People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 all >>> the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system). >>> Almost every IP address has a DNS name mapped to it to make it easy

>>> for people to use.
>>>

>>> So using DNS, we can address things like email to list.purple.com >>> (which is a particular computer) instead of it's IP address, which is

>>> 153.104.63.228. Both those point to the same thing.
>>>

>>> So, to answer #1, it looks like Villanova holds the DNS records for

>>> purple. So it is safe to say that there _is_ an institutional
>>> affiliation for purple.
>>>
>>> Here is the record for it's DNS:
>>>
>>> ;; QUESTION SECTION:
>>> ;purple.com.                    IN      A
>>>
>>> ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:

>>> purple.com. 6716 IN SOA ftp.ece.villanova.edu <http://ftp.ece.villanova.edu> <http:// ftp.ece.villanova.edu> . >>> root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu <http://ftp.ece.villanova.edu> <http://ftp.ece.villanova.edu> . 2006061100 43200 14400 3600000 259200

>>>
>>> ;; Query time: 10 msec
>>> ;; SERVER: 207.245.82.2#53(207.245.82.2)
>>> ;; WHEN: Sun Jul 29 19:08:36 2007
>>>

>>> And here is a GEO lookup for the actual list.purple.com computer:

>>>
>>> The IP 153.104.63.228 is located in:
>>> Country:    United States (US)
>>> Region:    PA
>>> City:    Villanova
>>> Latitude:    40.0369
>>> Longitude:    -75.3486
>>>

>>> (http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php) <http:// www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php%29>

>>>
>>> So, there you are.
>>>
>>> -andy diller
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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