It's also possible that Brian read Glenn's post quickly and
inaccurately, and/or rushed out an unproofed (as in 'unedited,' not
'unproven') response in the heat of the moment. Or, maybe he was, in
fact, toying with the words intentionally in order to push his point
of view beyond what a rational argument could support. But we can't
know which it was and should be open to either, and other, possible
explanations.
Attributing malicious intent to someone who might just be sincerely
mistaken (as opposed to lying, for example) is one of my "buttons"
that gets pushed by this and, often enough, other posts on this
listserv (and other settings.) It also can easily lead to all sorts of
conspiracy theories if piled up one upon another repeatedly.
Some advice to consider might be to assess and, if need be, counter
what's observable - like words and actions - not what's unseeable -
like motivation and feelings. Glenn, granted, you did the former but
you also did the latter. This is a lesson I had to learn as a social
worker who often had to justify my recommendations for clients in
Family Court (part of the process, no reflection on me), and has been
invaluable in other dialogues and relationships.
I can't help but wondering if documentation and proof wasn't asked for
of Glenn because of this sort of argumentation (referring to logic,
not demeanor) which he seems to use regularly, if (IF) my memory
serves me correctly, making people not see a point in asking for such.
I know I'm being tough on you, Glenn, yet again, but I openly invite
you to disagree with me and, I hope you at the least see that I do it
with the best intentions for you and all. You have many good points to
make about issues in the neighborhood; I just think you could make
them in more effective ways.
- Richard
On Oct 2, 2009, at 2:41 PM, Glenn moyer <[email protected]> wrote:
Siano gives such a classic example of the use of a straw man to
silence public discussion. Here are the quotes for everyone to
analyze. I think this is a dangerous propaganda technique important
for all citizens to study and recognize!!
From a reply to Craig when the unknown chemicals were first exposed:
Craig wrote about the 40 year history of the chemical industry and
benefit to mankind.
Moyer says:
"Craig, there is a big difference between any use of chemicals, and
arbitrary use for neo-Victorian aesthetic sensibilities.
With the unregulated corporate greed that your buddies worship, the
proper science is always avoided before millions of gallons of these
chemicals are dumped. You can point out that a demand for no
chemical use has trade offs. But no kids are dying from nutritious
dandelion in Clark park. These millions of gallons of pesticides
are being dumped to increase corporate profits. (Organic farmers
have found that good techniques can increase yield above chemically
doused soil.)"
Siano's straw man creation:
"Oh, I have to mention something that's very disturbing. Glenn has
made wild and unsupported claims that "millions of gallons" of
"poisons" are being dumped in the park, as a "corporate" effort to
promote "neo-Victorian" values. I have not seen anyone demand that
he support these claims with anything like proof. But when Tony
tries to answer these wild accusations-- and we're researching the
issue, trust me-- suddenly the people who swallowed Glenn's
dishonest bile are demanding "facts and data." Well, we're trying,
but they take time to assemble: Glenn has the luxury of throwing
whatever he wants onto the list, relevant, documented, or not."
Anyone reading the text of the exchange with Craig can easily see
that Siano pulls words from separate sentences. My point was that
proper science is avoided before nation wide release of these lawn
care chemicals in the interest of profits. I never said it all went
on Clark park, which is an absurd deliberately created deception
known as creating a straw man. He is attacking my character, yes;
but he is also trying to intimidate everyone requesting information
on these chemicals. The concerned community residents, parents, and
dog owners are annoying Siano, because they are simply being
manipulated by my "bile" and lies.
Do you see how Siano can make such attacks against the fictitious
straw man he created?? His false constructed quote looks ridiculous
when you go back and look what I actually said. Isn't it ridiculous
to think I was asserting that Clark park's treatments are the center
of the profits for huge corporations?
It may seem funny to think that Siano made such a silly
interpretation and that mistaken quote, '"millions of gallons" of
"poisons" are being dumped in the park' But Siano knew I said no
such thing as he took words from different places to help deceive
all of you. He wants to support the general ad hominem strategy,
which I have long encountered from those known as the aninted.
("Crazy, paranoid," etc, etc.")
Once people have been proven using this technique, they must never
be blindly trusted, especially, when they are officers or board
members of civic associations believed to have credibility. I think
the important question is not how we should react to Siano, but does
the FOCP board approve or condemn the use of Siano's straw man
fallacy to falsly portray a dissenter to their official business????
If FOCP board members on this list don't condemn Siano's public
straw man, as an agent of FOCP; the FOCP organization bears the
responsibility and should not be trusted by government nor members
of this community! This is crafted deception. It is not civil and
is one of the first strike strategies, which truly makes civility
impossible in public discourse. (FOCP controls their dog and pony
shows but can't control our study of the public text!)
Folks, we need to stand up to these tactics on the list, before it
gets started again! I believe that civic associations should all
require an ethics rule in their by-laws.
Glenn
PS: I have not received a retraction from Siano about the
accusations based on the Chance e-mails he wants to site. I will
soon forward the Chance e-mail as I promised without the public
retraction.
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