No nerves my friend - just trying to make sure the information gets articulated properly to everyone. And yes, some terms are not friendly for the local small businessman - but since they weren't just made up out of thin air - I challenge you to ask them just about any question where the answer doesn't come from a very simple, quite limiting tool and expect to get a proper answer.

OFBiz is a GREAT platform to build a business around, you just have to have worked with it longer than some people might like to get proficient. And THAT should be the goal with all of this IMHO.

By the way, I would LOVE to see mods to the backend that would help usability. My personal experience is it's much easier to train them to train others than it is to tailor every operation to what a user is used to. The most difficult client is someone who tries to shoehorn OFBiz into the one app they're used to!

Cheers,
Tim
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595


On Sep 25, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Skip wrote:

Tim

Gads, seems as if I hit a nerve. My apologies. Let me respond briefly.

"Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB".
My ability to use Ofbiz OOTB is not the issue here.  I am a software
engineer, not the end user. I will not be using it except for testing. I am
implementing it now for two mid-sized businesses with three to follow.

It is my view that with few exceptions, the back office Ofbiz applications, are not designed for the real people to use. As some examples, go to your friendly neighborhood corporate office and ask the A/R, A/P or manager type
person the meaning of these terms:
Logical Id, Facility Type ID, Empl Position Type Id, Manual Auth Is Capture, Order Enum Id, To Geo, Validate G C Fin Acct, Contact Mech, Reason Enum,
etc. etc.
If that person can correctly identify the purpose of any of them (and they have not used Ofbiz before), I would be very surprised. I would actually be surprised if you know all of them off the top of your head. These are a few of the ones I copied and pasted from various places in the Ofbiz back office applicatons. There are hundreds more. To use these applications OOTB, the person using it has to be educated on the meaning of what is mostly jargon. Remember too that some of these applications are rarely used, but critical
when needed.

That is why I say that it is probably uneconomical to train people to use Ofbiz OOTB. It is, I think, more economical to rewrite the UI using terms
understood by the people using them.

By the way, I do not mean to be derogatory here. I have evaluated lots of ERP applications for the folks I represent, both opensource and commercial. Ofbiz is the best of them all (or will be when I am done) and I am committed
to providing them a world-class set of applications based on it.

What I am trying to do is get those involved in the development to think
about the people who actually use the product in the end, the A/R-A/P
clerks, the shipping and recieving people, the CPAs, the purchasing agents,
the sales folks, and all the rest.

Let me also say thanks for the work that you and all those who contribute
have done.

Skip


  -----Original Message-----
  From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:07 AM
  To: [email protected]
  Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)


Skip you may not have the expertise in general to use it close to OOTB, but I must disagree that it is uneconomical to have people running their business on it. However, it may be uneconomical for newbies to be able to get their foot in the door and pop one up quickly without a lot of ramp up
on the existing processes.


Anything that needs to be discussed about Opentaps - should move to their mailing list - this just isn't a sales channel for migrating people over
there.



  Cheers,
  Tim
  --
  Tim Ruppert
  HotWax Media
  http://www.hotwaxmedia.com


  o:801.649.6594
  f:801.649.6595




  On Sep 25, 2007, at 12:04 PM, Skip wrote:


    Jacopo


Not to be argumentative, but I would say that Ofbiz is not "an Open
Source
    ERP system that can be used out of the box." ERP as you know is an
acronym
for Enterprise Resource Planning. If you had said that Ofbiz is a great ecommerce application that can be used out of the box, I would agree wholeheartedly. However, it lacks a lot on the resource planning side. I would also say that the training time to bring casual backoffice users
up to
    speed is beyond considerable (possibly uneconomical).


As Walter said, Opentaps goes a LONG way toward filling the holes and
making
    it earier for real people to use. Both products however need
considerable
customization to make them suitable for the majority of medium sized
    businesses.


    It is though perfect for VARs like me.


    My two $.


    Skip


    -----Original Message-----
    From: Jacopo Cappellato [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
    Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 5:42 AM
    To: [email protected]
    Subject: Re: org.ofbiz.base.start.StartupException: Cannot init()
    catalina-container (Protocol handler initialization failed:
    java.io.IOException: SunX509 KeyManagerFactory not available)




    Walter Vaughan wrote:
      Len Parker wrote:


        I'm a newbie, and I get the following error when I execute
        "java -jar ofbiz.jar":


      What does "java -version" say?
      Why are you not using ./startofbiz.sh shell script?


      Regarding your boss...
If you need a strong framework to build upon, OFBiz is what you are
      looking for.


OFBiz is *not* just a framework; it is an Open Source ERP system that
    can be used out of the box.
    Of course, but this is true for all the ERP systems, including
commercial ones, most of the companies will want to customize it to fit
    their custom/special/niche processes and OFBiz is *great* in this:
developing/customizing using OFBiz's entities, services and widgets is
    efficient and easy.
There are still some areas that are not fully implemented, the most remarkable one is the accounting application: we will hopefully fill
    this gap soon.


    Jacopo


      If you need CRM functionality, warehouse and purchasing
dashboards, built in Business Intellegence tools, and you can deal
with
GPL style license software you might also look at Opentaps. (NOTE:
This
is not a sales pitch for opentaps, just a heads up that there are
      options in the OFBiz world, especially if you are looking for
something
      to show the pointy headed boss).


      Welcome aboard!


      --
      Walter








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