Can I jump in here, not related to Helen Shaw. When Don was here for the Sowbug a few years ago, I only got a quick glimpse of what he was doing, I was too involved with the show to watch him tying. At that time it looked like what Dave Whitlock was showing me what he did before he learned to dub. I thought Don was doing the same thing till I viewed the Video. I find it is not the same thing Dave had showed me. I have to get caught up on getting some rods out before I can concentrate on the rope dubbing. I had a real bad year thus year and am not caught up with I am committed to get done. Rope dubbing is on the list of things to get done. Keep this tread going, I am saving them all in a file. I think Larry is planning on the Sowbug, Don is invited and if we can get Joyce there that would be great. Meeting Joyce several years ago was all my pleasure.The other two are just plain old men. LOL Larry hauled me around when I did a show in SLC and I met Don I think at that same show ot a later show there and again at the Sowbug. I respect all three people. All are top level and innovative tyers. What a blast it would be if we can all get together at one time. Tony
Tony --- On Thu, 11/4/10, Don Ordes <[email protected]> wrote: From: Don Ordes <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [VFB] Rope dubbing peacock- vs other techniques To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 11:40 AM Joyce, This is why I like to tie with people one-on-one. I could show you how to have no bump in your dubbing to start. I'll include that in DVD #2. Actually, I can use the dubbing to color the thread and have a finely dubbed fly not much larger than the shank. I rope-dub #32s with no bump at the tail. I don't remember getting photos from you of Helen's technique, but if that's so, I would be happy to publish that the rope-dub was 1st done by her. I'm not hanging my hat on the Rope-dub. I demo'd the technique for years for free and during all that time no one brought up Helen's technique. I'd be happy to be just the one to have popularized it rather than being 1st., like Tony does with the Chili-Pepper. After all, she started waaaay before I was even born. What I find strange is that I have been accused of plagerizing Polly Rosborough's technique by people that couldn't even do it and hadn't even seen his book. They were parroting someone they overheard. I have quite a following of master tiers that have adopted the rope-dub as their primary method of dubbing, if not only. None of these master tiers have told me that my method was the same as Helen's. Al Beatty has written a review for FlyTier and said that this was a unique approach. If you are right, I need to get to him asap to have him make correction to his text. He's a flyting master who's 'seen it all' but never made that connection. This leaves only two conclusions. If she did it and published it, it never got poplar amongst these master tiers. Or, her technique was different, and photos/text don't tell what live or video shows. So would you please send me that picture & text again? Maybe 'Don is convinced he is the 1st', but that is only because he's been told that many times by professional world-class master tiers much better than he is. The 1st one was in Green River, and he was a well-known guide on the Greene and a professional tier. This was the year 2000 or so. He said he had every book on the market in his shop/tying room and knew every technique out there, but hadn't seen my version of the rope-dub. He adopted it right there at the show. So I didn't invent my viewpoint out of 'smoke and mirrors' or ego, and I will definitley correct it if Helen did it 1st. I'll make corretions to all text and gladly give Helen the credit, even though I didn't learn it from her. I'll also call Al Beatty and dozens of others who haven't called this to my attention. Thanks, Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Joyce M Westphal To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [VFB] Rope dubbing peacock- vs other techniques Larry, I call it the scofield midge..sorry, got the name wrong. You need to know that Don is convinced he is the first person to use his :rope dub technique. I sent him a picture of Helen Shaw using the same technique in a book I have of hers that was copyrighted 1959 and he refused to see that it was the same technique. He also says that you can't move the noodle of dubbing up and down the thread when you use the Norvise. I tried to tell him that I move it up and down all the time, and the reason I really like spin dubbing is that you DON'T have to tie the dubbing down to use it, thus avoiding the knot of tied down dubbing, an unsightly bump, with the spin dubbing. I spin the dubbing, move the tiny tail right up to the area near the hook bend and spin it down, securing it with the spin itself and making a small and even, without unsightly bump, dubbing. I'll try and take a picture of it which will give you a better close up when I get home. JOyce On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Larry Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: I can noodle in the rope-dub style, or spin all my materials with the tying thread as the wire. I made some short gnats (looked like Griffith's Gnats except the hackle was brown. not grizzly) My buddy was fishing on the Boulder Mts, and was the only one catching anything. An old feller walked around to him and asked him what he was using. My buddy gave him three or four of these flies, and one of my cards, and they all started catching fish. The old guy called me and asked for 4 dozen of them. The next year he ordered 6 dozen. I met him accidentally on the upper fish creek several summers ago. He still had some of those flies, but said he had to stop giving them away. That was 1970 - 72. The fly is now the Boulder Mt. Midge. size 12 - 16. Peacock,(two or three herls) gold tinsel, and brown hackle, all "spun" with the working thread as the wire. At the Sowbug I was showing how to tie it in one minute or less. Larry J >>> "Don Ordes" <[email protected]> 11/3/2010 1:35 PM >>> Larry, I don't advocate that the rope-dub replaces everything. I advocate that the rope-dub works with all dubbings and is very fast, and achieves segments with taper in one pass, and speed, and all of the other things I list on the website page. If someone wants to stay with a loop or other method because they are comfortable and practiced with it, who am I to say otherwise? But if someone can't afford the Nor-vise ($340+/-) and the load-em-up retractable bobbins, they can get the same results just as fast once they master the RD. My advocacy is that a tier can use one technique for all dubbings, and have better control of the results with the fingertip manipulation of the noodle. I didn't show photos yet, but I introduce many other materials along with tinsels into the peacock rope, such as cactus chennilles and ice-dub. I show on the DVD that once the technique is mastered, a materials pliers can be used to speed up (not replace) the process even more. DVD#2 will show even more techniques like this. Syn-seal is one dubbing that is speeded up by using a material clip (it's so slick). But shape control is still with the fingertips on a stationary core. I have a question for you. When you Nor-Vise your noodle, does the wire twist with the peacock? A major departure of the rope-dub from other methods is that the wire does not twist and the roped noodle can therefore be compressed and shaped for a one-pass tie. I've seen tons of take-offs of the hackle-with-the-noodle approach, but they've all been since I originally posted it on the VFB in 2001, and I had been showing it in shows 2 years prior to that. I wouldn't bet my life on it, of course, but I was never able to find any references to 'noodling the hackle with the dubbing' before 2000. I watched Lefty rope peacock with wire in 2004 in Denver, but he didn't add the hackle to the rope. Last thing I care to get into is a technique-war. I published the rope-dubbing for free for over 10 years and put it on Byard's site in 2001- all for free. I wasn't trying to 'take' anyone and everyone had a choice and I didn't care what that was. No money was at stake. At the shows, the extended demos took 20 minutes and covered a dozen or more flies and sub-techniques. Viewers stated that they could never remember it all, and so did I have a DVD. A few thought it was Polly's technique, but I showed them in his book that it is not. So many of them, like Denny Conrad, asked for a DVD so they could study and practice all of the techniques at home. I still don't know if it was the best thing to do, but it's done. The DVD is out and getting reviewed by the entire industry, with almost all positive feed-back. I've had a few un-informed web-posters say negative things about it, but they were promptly informed. A few complain about the price, but they are not purchasers or rope-dubbers, so they have no concept of the actual value of the methods on the DVD. Al Beatty reviewed it just after I gave him one at the FFF clave in W Yellowstone. He loved it and wrote a very positive review (so he tells me) for Fly Tyer Magazine, and wanted to buy the DVD. It's FTM's choice when they print it, and I haven't seen it. I still rope-dub demo for free at the shows. Fortunately, it goes so fast that viewers cannot retain what they see, and they still get the DVD if they can afford it. That's the other thing- the economy. That's why I did a 25% discount for the next 2 months to make it easier to buy them as gifts. So I say if you like your Nor-Vise better, by all means stick with it. I just hope you've done a heads-up comparison of speed vs results vs versatility. Very Best Regards, DonO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Johnson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [VFB] Rope dubbing peacock- Fly of the Week- peacock Don: I know that you are a great advocate of the rope-dub technique. I have been doing the same thing you are doing with the peacock and hackle for years on my Nor-Vise. I add a strip of narrow tinsel to it. I fish it like that, or use it as a body for a caddis or mayfly, etc. Larry Johnson Springville, Utah >>> "Don Ordes" <[email protected]> 11/3/2010 11:18 AM >>> For Rope-dubbers: Below is just a little of what can be done with rope-dubbing peacock, hackle, and dubbing. This is a local pattern called a half-back nymph. I tied the wing-case on and left it in a post-type position. I roped the peacock over wire in a 50/50 bare/hackle set-up. When I wrapped forward, the hackle started at the wingcase and finished at the bead. I then pulled the wing forward and tied off. The hackling looks different than a palmered version (see close-up below) and is tooth-proof. (See portion way below) Compressed, dense hackle^ This is a size 26 peacock fly, using the fine- but weak- iridescent green feathers above the peacock eye. It much stronger when roped with a strong core thread. Your peacock can be furled so tight that it will furl on itself. I was never able to get it this tight twisting the wire with the peacock as the wire would break, as it is too brittle to twist. Above is an assortment of approaches. Don't forget that your rope can be compressed to make it thicker and this bunches up the hackles, making them denser. (photo #2) The hackle can be introduced at any part of the fly, or on the whole fly. This photo above demonstrates the durability of a wire-cored peacock/hackle fly. I took a small saw and chewed off the peacock and hackle all the way down the the core. The fly still cannot come unravelled- either the peacock or the hackle. Actually, I have a couple like this I use as patterns with copper-colored wire segments showing. I do this saw-demo at all the shows. Chuck has gotten a ton of these demo-flies to salvage the hooks. Go ahead and ask any questions. DonO -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vfb-mail?hl=en VFB Mail is sponsored by Line's End Inc at http://www.linesend.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VFB Mail" group. 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