Well apart from no Apple Music for the time being I like my Apple TV 3 a lot 
and have no plans to upgrade for the time being.
> On 30 Nov 2015, at 21:04, Gianni <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Friends, 
> I have an Apple tv 3gen. I wanted to buy an Apple tv4. I use it to listen to 
> my itunes library, watch Netflix and Youtube. I'm grad I didn't buy a new 
> one, because I don't think it has a lot of added value. Okay you can get apps 
> on it. But are there a lot of things you can't do on your Apple tv3. 
> 
> I would like to have an internet browser on my Appletv which can play flash 
> on websites. That would be cool. But that ain't possible. So nothing extra 
> for me there.
> 
> 
> 
> Gianni
> 
> Skype: giannijuve
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> Op 30-nov.-2015 om 19:48 heeft Rajmund <[email protected]> het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
>> Hello,
>> This is off topic, I know. But, in general, the quality of everything is 
>> dropping, even note takers. I have had nothing but keyboard issues with the 
>> HIMS braille sense. The IOS devices will never have that.... (smile)
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Mary Otten  <[email protected]>
>> To: [email protected]
>> Date: Monday, November 30, 2015 5:02 pm
>> Subject: Re: apple tv 4th generation thoughts
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Amen. Apple is the richest tech company in the world. Unless they come out 
>>> publicly and say they acknowledged a lot of bugs, but just can't find 
>>> enough talented and qualified people to squash them all, they have zero 
>>> excuse. None. But as long as we all keep buying this half baked, half 
>>> finished software, and let them off the hook for several months, and let 
>>> some bugs keep piling up, there will be no incentive. The only thing 
>>> companies understand his bottom line. And clearly, the drop in quality is 
>>> not hurting Apple one little bit. Not among the blind, and not among the 
>>> sighted The whole industry is getting away with sloppiness. It is certainly 
>>> not just Apple. I have been experimenting again with android. And believe 
>>> me, the grass is definitely not greener on that side of the fence from the 
>>> blind person screen reader user point of view. It may have some advantages. 
>>> But efficient use is not one of them.
>>> 
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 29, 2015, at 9:27 PM, Cristóbal <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> These are all salient points to consider, but also considering the sheer 
>>>> amount of cash Apple has at its disposal, I'm reluctant to cut Apple much 
>>>> if any slack on problematic issues like this. They have the resources 
>>>> available to them that if they wanted to make dealing with and avoiding 
>>>> accessibility bugs and limitations a priority, they could do so without 
>>>> skipping a beat. I mean come on, they have so much available cash on hand 
>>>> that they make Scrooge McDuck look like some bum scrounging for quarters 
>>>> in the gutter.
>>>> There is absolutely no reason why their accessibility department or any 
>>>> department under the Apple umbrella should be understaffed or stretched 
>>>> thin..
>>>> Even with the new Apple TV OS aside, a lot of these bugs already discussed 
>>>> are either newly introduced bugs not present in older iterations of 
>>>> software or hardware or have solutions to them when using alternative 
>>>> assistive technology I.E. Windows screen readers, Android OS, etc. Often 
>>>> pretty basic and essential stuff. Cara's highlighting of the dial tone bug 
>>>> with VO is a perfect example of this.
>>>> I can understand the challenges where you're developing new technologies 
>>>> and figuring out stuff as you go along, and maybe in this case, there 
>>>> simply aren't enough people or knowledge out there to address all the 
>>>> inevitable road blocks that pop up as part of the process, but for well 
>>>> established fields and problems that at this point shouldn't be problems 
>>>> anymore, again, no slack to be cut.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf 
>>>> Of Marshall Scott
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2015 3:29 PM
>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>> Subject: Re: apple tv 4th generation thoughts
>>>> 
>>>> I think there are two major reasons for the recent problems with 
>>>> accessibility at Apple.  The first is that Apple now has to develop and 
>>>> support software and hardware for four product lines.  These lines are OS 
>>>> X, iOS for iDevices, the apple Watch and finally Apple TV.  Apple also has 
>>>> to support older devices like the iPhone 4S.  The differences between 
>>>> these products may be slight but they have to be tested.
>>>> The second issue is that Apple has decided on a 12 month release 
>>>> schedule..  As a former programmer, I feel like this is too short a 
>>>> development cycle to really fix bugs in software
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>> Marshall
>>>> 
>>>>> On Nov 29, 2015, at 11:20 AM, Cara Quinn <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> ben, I couldn't agree with you more here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I feel now that the more we are complacent about quietly dealing with the 
>>>>> mounting accessibility issues over the various OS roll-outs and new Apple 
>>>>> products, the worse this situation is unfortunately likely to become.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The truth is that Apple has been doing incredible things in the access 
>>>>> world over the last several years and they really should be settling into 
>>>>> their groove now, not out of it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Unfortunately though, the later seems to be what is happening.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Now I know that the accessibility team is stretched thin and has been for 
>>>>> some time now, and they are truly committed people who really do work 
>>>>> hard to make these technologies work for us, but some of these issues are 
>>>>> QA (quality assurance) issues in my opinion. Some of these obvious issues 
>>>>> need to be given higher priority than they seem to be receiving. Now I 
>>>>> know that there is a lot going on inside Apple that I am not aware of so 
>>>>> some of what I say may be well out of line here, (and I do apologize if 
>>>>> this is the case) but as a consumer and long-time advocate of Appel's 
>>>>> efforts, I feel I do have some right to express these sentiments.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The people on the accessibility team are awesome folks but the fact is 
>>>>> that more and more, visually impaired consumers are having to deal with 
>>>>> what I do feel is becoming somewhat second-rate access experiences with 
>>>>> some Apple products and /or OS releases. This is simply unacceptable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I know this is anything but intentional on the part of the access team 
>>>>> but it is still simply unacceptable and I feel this needs to be said.
>>>>> 
>>>>> to illustrate this, when iOS 8 came out, one extremely serious issue was 
>>>>> the sticking touch tones (which would prevent people from making calls) 
>>>>> on the iPhone. Who on earth let this walk out the door? Who thought that 
>>>>> this would be okay? For God's sake, the iPhone is first and foremost a 
>>>>> phone after all, and to have that very function released with such an 
>>>>> incapacitating bug for users of Voiceover is so far beyond crazy that I 
>>>>> honestly cannot express myself here within this list's language 
>>>>> guidelines.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you are tasked with testing a phone, what is the first thing you test? 
>>>>> Can you make a call? Can you do it again? Can you do it five more times? 
>>>>> Can you make the call on the other models of phone you produce? You get 
>>>>> the idea...
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I have recently said on another list, Apple has the pick of the cream 
>>>>> of the crop of engineers, designers and any other professionals it 
>>>>> requires. So why is this happening? What is the excuse?...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Honestly, there is none...
>>>>> 
>>>>> So what do we do about it? Certainly, posting here can be cathartic but 
>>>>> it may not reach those it needs to. Yes, we can write 
>>>>> [email protected] however, those communications may not actually go 
>>>>> directly to the engineers in the accessibility department like it used to.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I personally feel that we need to secure several options for ourselves 
>>>>> now to be assured of good access to technology. I do feel we need to stay 
>>>>> in touch with Apple in a very active sense. I also feel we need to look 
>>>>> at all technology options besides Apple products and similarly stay 
>>>>> actively in touch with their respective developers and / or companies as 
>>>>> well.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I personally intend to stay with Apple products for the majority of my 
>>>>> tech needs, but quite honestly, I also feel the time is now in general, 
>>>>> in the tech world where the awareness level is much better than it ever 
>>>>> has been. Discussions are happening; conferences are covering access. I 
>>>>> see more discussion now on programming forums about accessibility and 
>>>>> interested developers asking questions. etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My point is that Apple has been a true trailblazer here and while I hope 
>>>>> they find it in themselves to improve what they are doing now, I feel 
>>>>> that we need to really make our voices heard in general so that 
>>>>> accessibility can really be a forefront topic of conversation for 
>>>>> technology in general.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This can only benefit us...
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would welcome others' opinions on this as well. What are your thoughts? 
>>>>> How do you feel we should address these issues?
>>>>> 
>>>>> As I said I am by no means ditching Apple here. The truth is, I love my 
>>>>> Apple products  and I love the fact that they have Voiceover. It's just 
>>>>> that it's a love / hate relationship sometimes now. That's all! :)
>>>>> 
>>>>> So what do you think? Chime in if you like...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks so much for reading and please do have a wonderful rest of your 
>>>>> weekend and happy holiday season!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cara
>>>>> ---
>>>>> iOS design and development - LookTel.com
>>>>> ---
>>>>> View my Online Portfolio at:
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn
>>>>> 
>>>>> Follow me on Twitter!
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://twitter.com/ModelCara
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Nov 29, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Ben Mustill-Rose <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is correct, but this simply shouldn't be the case. As it stands,
>>>>> given the lack of apps and the VO issues, I have to add a few caveats
>>>>> whenever I recommend that someone buys one because in my opinion it
>>>>> simply isn't ready for primetime yet. The TV has been shipping for
>>>>> around a month now and I haven't noticed any updates to the OS to fix
>>>>> any of the issues that I and others have experienced. Some will argue
>>>>> that I should email the accessibility address, but we're talking about
>>>>> some really obvious issues here - E.G. "poster" being spoken instead
>>>>> of app names and Siri screens being inaccessible. These are things
>>>>> that Apple know about and have chosen not to fix. I'm confident that
>>>>> at some point in the future these issues will be resolved, but when?
>>>>> Should we really be content with spending what is for most people a
>>>>> fairly large amount of money on a device in the hope that at some
>>>>> point in the future it will be fully accessible?
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 11/29/15, MamaPeach <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> The new Apple TV, with updates, will improve over time, just like 
>>>>>> anything
>>>>>> else that is newly released, such as any new versions of IOS. It takes
>>>>>> people letting them know what issues they encounter in order for them to
>>>>>> consider fixing them.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Ben Mustill-Rose
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 7:49 PM
>>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: apple tv 4th generation thoughts
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It's good but still feels like a bit of a beta product. The remote has
>>>>>> sensitivity issues - E.G. I unknowingly purchased a film when it was
>>>>>> in my pocket and there are some annoying VO issues but nothing that is
>>>>>> a show stopper in my opinion.
>>>>>> Given the fairly small range of apps available at the moment it's
>>>>>> definitely expensive for what it is, but hopefully this situation will
>>>>>> improve in the future.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ben.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 11/28/15, Larry Lumpkin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello all.  I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts concerning the apple tv 4..
>>>>>>> Do
>>>>>>> you like it? Do you not like it? Why not? Etc.  thanks very much.
>>>>>>> 
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>> 
>> Sent from a Braille Sense 
>> 
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