Hmm, I live in the U.S. and to my knowledge, we have no such law stating
this directly. Most businesses will state whether or not they have a return
policy and what steps you can take to obtain a refund if your request comes
within a specifically stated timeframe.
Certainly blind people here have sued companies for not making their
products or web sites accessible, but this doesn't always mean we get
access. Usually companies like to throw money at a problem and hope that it
goes away. Sometimes this approach works, and sometimes it doesn't.
A few years ago, the National Federation of the blind sued retailer Target
because the NFB claimed their web site wasn't accessible to screen readers
and won a huge settlement, then soonafter, Target updated their web site.
With this case, though, you could still find blind people who used the site
successfully before the suit.
I seem to remember a guy two or three years ago who sued Sony because their
games weren't accessible to us. I don't know the outcome of that suit, but
I imagine he didn't get anything but maybe some money and a pat on the head.
We can't even get Netflicks to include audio description without jumping
through hoops.
It seems like the blind user base is more fragmented here then in the UK, so
our success at making businesses comply with such laws has mixed results
because the only thing they understand is the bottom line, and there's not
enough of us to really put a huge dent in their profits
Also, your excerpts didn't make it clear that you were in discussion with
employees higher than lower level customer service reps.
Lisa
There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a
paycheck!
Lisa Belville
[email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps
Lisa,
When I buy something I would expect to be able to use it, when I report to
the seller, which in law is Apple not the developer, I expect them to act…
Either by making the product usable or by offering a refund of my purchase
amount.
In the UK we have a law called: The Distance Selling Regulations, it
guarantees a legal right to a refund for any product or service bought
remotely where you did not have a chance to hands on sample the goods up
front, Apple cannot get around this law, their refusal to comply is illegal
and indeed immoral and unethical.
I am of the personal opinion that telling me, the solution from their
perspective is to have me write a review about my troubles, rather than
refunding me or solving my issue patronising… To patronise to me is to make
a statement without understanding or thought to how that statement may
affect me or impact me.
Anyhow, it is what it is, and the person at Apple referred this up twice to
two different levels of Apple management, so these are the statements of at
least three employees, two of whom were senior.
Regards,
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
Twitter @neilbarnfather
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple
iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
URL: - www.talknav.com
e-mail: - [email protected]
Phone: - +44 844 999 4199
On 11 Sep 2013, at 18:01, Lisa belville <[email protected]> wrote:
Well, I hate to say it, but I don't find this response patronising. I
disagree with the policy, but I don't find these responses unprofessional.
This person is probably someone on the main lines of their customer
service who is only authorized to tell you what they were taught in
training.
A better customer service approach would have been for them to indicate
that they had reviewed your purchasing records and were going to kick the
request up to a supervisor. Still, this doesn't render their responses
patronising or unsympathetic.
I'm sure lots of people request refunds for all kinds of reasons, not that
an inaccessible app we can't use at all through no fault of our own isn't
a valid reason. I don't purchase an app unless I see positive reviews of
it up on Applevis.com or this list simply because I don't want to waste
money and deal with this type of frustration.
I think something like a targeted campaign stating our concerns and why
The Apple Store should adopt a policy wherein we should be entitled to
refunds in situations where we purchase inaccessible apps is going to get
a better result.
Lisa
There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a
paycheck!
Lisa Belville
[email protected]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav"
<[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps
Yes, below are three quotes from the messages that I have exchanged about
this, you'll see very clearly what they have to say about it…
--Apple iTunes App Store Support responses--
"I appreciate your feedback and I understand your frustration.
Every app gets reviewed by Apple, but you also have as user the chance to
leave your own opinion about the products offered on the App Store,
writing a review to the mentioned app.
You can also submit your feedback about the accessibility feature of apps
and how this should be clearly indicated in the app description.
I encourage you therefore to use the iTunes Feedback page to submit your
comments:
http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunesapp.html.";
"We have checked this a second time again. We do understand that it is
frustrating to have paid for an application that you won't be able to use,
but I need to remind you that all sales on the iTunes Store are final.
I just want also to remind you that the App Store is just a commercial
platform, we do not create most of the apps that are sold on the Store so
we are unable to guarantee their voice over compatibility. You may wish to
contact the developer prior to purchasing an app in the future to find out
if they have this feature."
--end--
As you can see, they are very clearly not budging.
Regards,
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
Twitter @neilbarnfather
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple
iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
URL: - www.talknav.com
e-mail: - [email protected]
Phone: - +44 844 999 4199
On 11 Sep 2013, at 15:59, Lisa belville <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi. Is there any way you could share a letter showing how the Apple
people were patronizing/unhelpful in this regard? I understand the
frustration of not getting a refund for something inaccessible and how a
clueless rep makes this all the more annoying, but IMO there's a
difference between politely/patiently conveying a policy and being
patronizing. Obviously, you can take out any names in this letter, but
it would be good to see an example of this attitude. Could it possibly
be this particular rep's issue and not necessarily one of Apple itself?
I'm referring to the patronizing/unsympathetic attitude and not the
policy itself.
Lisa
There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a
paycheck!
Lisa Belville
[email protected]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav"
<[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; "The
Accessible Phones Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:58 AM
Subject: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps
The below should prove a concern to all Apple accessibility feature
users, and I would urge as many of you who can do so, to please write to
Apple yourselves to express your concern along the same lines where
possible… ([email protected]).
For years now Apple has led the way in accessibility standards and
application of methods in interacting with all of its product range.
Internationally within many disability arenas Apple is celebrated as the
defacto standard and is widely acknowledged as users preferred platform
for persons with accessibility issues.
Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers
with accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is
that where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple
App Store has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately
without question.
Since Apple do not enforce accessibility standards, nor in anyway
whatsoever offer a method of a disabled user to know whether or not an
App is, or is not, accessible in advance of purchase, this seemed to be a
most reasonable compromise.
However, in correspondence over the past week with Apple iTunes support
staff via e-mail in relation to an App I have purchased which is
inaccessible, Apple's stance has been both surprising and frankly highly
dismissive of our needs and vulnerability when using Apple's App Store.
I have been point blank refused a refund upon this occasion, with staff
suggesting that I could leave a review for the App which others could
read, and or write to the developer. Whilst I understand that the second
suggestion may illicit a positive response, and sometimes it does… In
many instances developers haven't even heard of Voice Over let alone
understand what it does and how they aught to address compliance with
Apple's Accessibility API's.
Of course, the best approach would be for Apple to make compliance with
its Accessibility API's a requirement for all new Apps being approved to
the App Store, indeed a range of other options would also work, such as;
a discount on the 30% cut that Apple takes for compliant Apps, a penalty
higher fee (35% etc) for those that do not comply and perhaps indicating
with a marker in the App store which Apps do meet the requirements.
Since Apple do none of these, despite so publicly professing to up
holding and supporting some of the most well implemented accessibility
innovation and support seen in the industry, it seemed like a fair
compromise that Apple voluntarily and without complication offered a
refund to customers who had accessibility needs where an App proved to be
inaccessible.
The situation now, though is that Apple is refusing in an uncompromising
and frankly shocking way to refund such purchases, with patronising and
unsympathetic suggestions as to how we, as blind users, go about
reviewing Apps etc.
I would ask that Apple firstly developed a robust policy in this regard,
and secondly, reviews options as to improving the compliance uptake of
developers within their iOS and Mac App Stores.
So that I can convey your response to the ViPhone, Macvisionaries and
other Apple Accessibility user forums promptly, I would sincerely
appreciate your earliest feedback and response on this issue.
Yours kindly.
Regards,
Neil Barnfather
http://www.NeilBarnfather.com
Regards,
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
Twitter @neilbarnfather
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple
iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
URL: - www.talknav.com
e-mail: - [email protected]
Phone: - +44 844 999 4199
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