Well, in a hypothetical, if you find that only the blind are not being seated in the same dining area of a restaurant as other patrons, this is discrimination. You might not notice if you are the only person this is happening to as you may not return to the restaurant, but if many blind customers begin posting in a public forum, then you now have a pattern of discrimination. We can talk hypothetical's all day long, but I do have some experience on the subject matter but do not have a law degree as I just needed some legal issues resolved and didn't feel I had to obtain a law degree to resolve my issues. I will say I definitely learned lots along the way. I will also add that Apple probably has teams of lawyers in different area of law, so you what you may feel is common sense may not apply when it comes to the law. it is for this reason I usually roll my eyes when I start reading posts on the law when many have merely experienced the legal system in their state or country via TV or 10 second sound clips on radio and or TV. In short, the law is a very long, complex, painful process. <Smile>. I'm sorry but much of this is pretty much off topic, so if you'd like please reply off list and if there's time we can discuss this a bit more. <Smile>.
Joseph ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps Joseph, Not sure in the world where you are, certainly here in the UK discrimination doesn't have to exhibit any pattern, I am amazed that if this is the case where you are… An act of discrimination or a series of acts are all the same here… The fact that I have previously had refunds would to me indicate that this is the correct, usual and normal action and not a reason not to do it this time around. Regards, Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator Twitter @neilbarnfather TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com URL: - www.talknav.com e-mail: - [email protected] Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 On 11 Sep 2013, at 17:23, Joseph FreeTech <[email protected]> wrote: > I noticed you did not post your messages to Apple customer service. Seems > a > bit odd. You stated in a previous message that you've quickly received a > refund for your many other purchases. Your current issue sounds like a one > off thing. In other words, let's say you reach someone at the management > level, he's quickly going to review your purchasing history and notice > that > indeed you have been given refunds in the past and that there is no unfair > treatment or discrimination of blind Apple customers. In short, for any > such > charges to be successfully levied against Apple or anyone else, there must > be a pattern of discrimination. The key word is "pattern." You might also > consider how much your time and effort is worth and compare this to the > cost > of the time and effort you've placed on trying to get your few dollars > back. > > Joseph > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:29 AM > Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps > > > Yes, below are three quotes from the messages that I have exchanged about > this, you'll see very clearly what they have to say about it… > > --Apple iTunes App Store Support responses-- > > "I appreciate your feedback and I understand your frustration. > > Every app gets reviewed by Apple, but you also have as user the chance to > leave your own opinion about the products offered on the App Store, > writing > a review to the mentioned app. > > You can also submit your feedback about the accessibility feature of apps > and how this should be clearly indicated in the app description. > I encourage you therefore to use the iTunes Feedback page to submit your > comments: > http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunesapp.html."; > > "We have checked this a second time again. We do understand that it is > frustrating to have paid for an application that you won't be able to use, > but I need to remind you that all sales on the iTunes Store are final. > > I just want also to remind you that the App Store is just a commercial > platform, we do not create most of the apps that are sold on the Store so > we > are unable to guarantee their voice over compatibility. You may wish to > contact the developer prior to purchasing an app in the future to find out > if they have this feature." > > --end-- > > As you can see, they are very clearly not budging. > > > > > Regards, > > Neil Barnfather > > Talks List Administrator > Twitter @neilbarnfather > > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple > iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your > accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com > > URL: - www.talknav.com > e-mail: - [email protected] > Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 > > On 11 Sep 2013, at 15:59, Lisa belville <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hi. Is there any way you could share a letter showing how the Apple >> people were patronizing/unhelpful in this regard? I understand the >> frustration of not getting a refund for something inaccessible and how a >> clueless rep makes this all the more annoying, but IMO there's a >> difference between politely/patiently conveying a policy and being >> patronizing. Obviously, you can take out any names in this letter, but >> it >> would be good to see an example of this attitude. Could it possibly be >> this particular rep's issue and not necessarily one of Apple itself? I'm >> referring to the patronizing/unsympathetic attitude and not the policy >> itself. >> >> Lisa >> >> >> >> There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a >> paycheck! >> Lisa Belville >> [email protected] >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" >> <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; "The >> Accessible Phones Discussion List" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:58 AM >> Subject: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >> >> >> The below should prove a concern to all Apple accessibility feature >> users, >> and I would urge as many of you who can do so, to please write to Apple >> yourselves to express your concern along the same lines where possible… >> ([email protected]). >> >> For years now Apple has led the way in accessibility standards and >> application of methods in interacting with all of its product range. >> Internationally within many disability arenas Apple is celebrated as the >> defacto standard and is widely acknowledged as users preferred platform >> for persons with accessibility issues. >> >> Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers >> with accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is >> that where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple >> App >> Store has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >> question. >> >> Since Apple do not enforce accessibility standards, nor in anyway >> whatsoever offer a method of a disabled user to know whether or not an >> App >> is, or is not, accessible in advance of purchase, this seemed to be a >> most >> reasonable compromise. >> >> However, in correspondence over the past week with Apple iTunes support >> staff via e-mail in relation to an App I have purchased which is >> inaccessible, Apple's stance has been both surprising and frankly highly >> dismissive of our needs and vulnerability when using Apple's App Store. >> >> I have been point blank refused a refund upon this occasion, with staff >> suggesting that I could leave a review for the App which others could >> read, and or write to the developer. Whilst I understand that the second >> suggestion may illicit a positive response, and sometimes it does… In >> many >> instances developers haven't even heard of Voice Over let alone >> understand >> what it does and how they aught to address compliance with Apple's >> Accessibility API's. >> >> Of course, the best approach would be for Apple to make compliance with >> its Accessibility API's a requirement for all new Apps being approved to >> the App Store, indeed a range of other options would also work, such as; >> a >> discount on the 30% cut that Apple takes for compliant Apps, a penalty >> higher fee (35% etc) for those that do not comply and perhaps indicating >> with a marker in the App store which Apps do meet the requirements. >> >> Since Apple do none of these, despite so publicly professing to up >> holding >> and supporting some of the most well implemented accessibility innovation >> and support seen in the industry, it seemed like a fair compromise that >> Apple voluntarily and without complication offered a refund to customers >> who had accessibility needs where an App proved to be inaccessible. >> >> The situation now, though is that Apple is refusing in an uncompromising >> and frankly shocking way to refund such purchases, with patronising and >> unsympathetic suggestions as to how we, as blind users, go about >> reviewing >> Apps etc. >> >> I would ask that Apple firstly developed a robust policy in this regard, >> and secondly, reviews options as to improving the compliance uptake of >> developers within their iOS and Mac App Stores. >> >> So that I can convey your response to the ViPhone, Macvisionaries and >> other Apple Accessibility user forums promptly, I would sincerely >> appreciate your earliest feedback and response on this issue. >> >> Yours kindly. >> >> Regards, >> >> Neil Barnfather >> >> http://www.NeilBarnfather.com >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Neil Barnfather >> >> Talks List Administrator >> Twitter @neilbarnfather >> >> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple >> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >> >> URL: - www.talknav.com >> e-mail: - [email protected] >> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >> Google Group. >> >> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. >> >> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >> >> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >> [email protected]. >> >> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >> [email protected]. >> >> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "VIPhone" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >> Google Group. >> >> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. >> >> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >> >> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >> [email protected]. >> >> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >> [email protected]. >> >> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "VIPhone" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" > Google > Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > [email protected]. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > [email protected]. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" > Google Group. > > Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. > > Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. > > Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing > [email protected]. > > Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing > [email protected]. > > More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting > http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "VIPhone" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group. 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