Lisa, You make good points about our numbers, but, often people who are blind perhaps at a younger age, perhaps from birth or still at a young age often forget the huge numbers of elderly people who with ever increasing numbers are using tablet computers etc.
The UK has a population of 60 million, with approximately 2.5 million registered blind / partially sighted individuals here. however, estimates put the number of people needing glasses or other corrective aids to see to walk or read etc, and this figure includes the previously mentioned 2.5 million at 10 to 12 million persons. That means that something like a sixth of the UK population that's 1 in 6 people have a sight issue… I suspect strongly that this figure would replicate in the US quite easily… There's a big movement in technology firms at this time to begin to try and attract these clients, as the market is huge, if we can tag ourselves into that then we become a far larger voice. in terms of my excerpts, they are from a low grade person, but, they specifically start by stating to me that they've talked it over with their line managers etc. Regards, Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator Twitter @neilbarnfather TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com URL: - www.talknav.com e-mail: - [email protected] Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 On 11 Sep 2013, at 20:25, Lisa belville <[email protected]> wrote: > Hmm, I live in the U.S. and to my knowledge, we have no such law stating this > directly. Most businesses will state whether or not they have a return > policy and what steps you can take to obtain a refund if your request comes > within a specifically stated timeframe. > > Certainly blind people here have sued companies for not making their products > or web sites accessible, but this doesn't always mean we get access. Usually > companies like to throw money at a problem and hope that it goes away. > Sometimes this approach works, and sometimes it doesn't. > > A few years ago, the National Federation of the blind sued retailer Target > because the NFB claimed their web site wasn't accessible to screen readers > and won a huge settlement, then soonafter, Target updated their web site. > With this case, though, you could still find blind people who used the site > successfully before the suit. > > I seem to remember a guy two or three years ago who sued Sony because their > games weren't accessible to us. I don't know the outcome of that suit, but I > imagine he didn't get anything but maybe some money and a pat on the head. We > can't even get Netflicks to include audio description without jumping through > hoops. > > It seems like the blind user base is more fragmented here then in the UK, so > our success at making businesses comply with such laws has mixed results > because the only thing they understand is the bottom line, and there's not > enough of us to really put a huge dent in their profits > > Also, your excerpts didn't make it clear that you were in discussion with > employees higher than lower level customer service reps. > > Lisa > > > There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a > paycheck! > Lisa Belville > [email protected] > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" > <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 1:43 PM > Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps > > > Lisa, > > When I buy something I would expect to be able to use it, when I report to > the seller, which in law is Apple not the developer, I expect them to act… > > Either by making the product usable or by offering a refund of my purchase > amount. > > In the UK we have a law called: The Distance Selling Regulations, it > guarantees a legal right to a refund for any product or service bought > remotely where you did not have a chance to hands on sample the goods up > front, Apple cannot get around this law, their refusal to comply is illegal > and indeed immoral and unethical. > > I am of the personal opinion that telling me, the solution from their > perspective is to have me write a review about my troubles, rather than > refunding me or solving my issue patronising… To patronise to me is to make a > statement without understanding or thought to how that statement may affect > me or impact me. > > Anyhow, it is what it is, and the person at Apple referred this up twice to > two different levels of Apple management, so these are the statements of at > least three employees, two of whom were senior. > > > Regards, > > Neil Barnfather > > Talks List Administrator > Twitter @neilbarnfather > > TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple > iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your > accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com > > URL: - www.talknav.com > e-mail: - [email protected] > Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 > > On 11 Sep 2013, at 18:01, Lisa belville <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Well, I hate to say it, but I don't find this response patronising. I >> disagree with the policy, but I don't find these responses unprofessional. >> This person is probably someone on the main lines of their customer service >> who is only authorized to tell you what they were taught in training. >> >> A better customer service approach would have been for them to indicate that >> they had reviewed your purchasing records and were going to kick the request >> up to a supervisor. Still, this doesn't render their responses patronising >> or unsympathetic. >> >> I'm sure lots of people request refunds for all kinds of reasons, not that >> an inaccessible app we can't use at all through no fault of our own isn't a >> valid reason. I don't purchase an app unless I see positive reviews of it >> up on Applevis.com or this list simply because I don't want to waste money >> and deal with this type of frustration. >> >> I think something like a targeted campaign stating our concerns and why The >> Apple Store should adopt a policy wherein we should be entitled to refunds >> in situations where we purchase inaccessible apps is going to get a better >> result. >> >> Lisa >> >> >> There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a >> paycheck! >> Lisa Belville >> [email protected] >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" >> <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:29 AM >> Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >> >> >> Yes, below are three quotes from the messages that I have exchanged about >> this, you'll see very clearly what they have to say about it… >> >> --Apple iTunes App Store Support responses-- >> >> "I appreciate your feedback and I understand your frustration. >> >> Every app gets reviewed by Apple, but you also have as user the chance to >> leave your own opinion about the products offered on the App Store, writing >> a review to the mentioned app. >> >> You can also submit your feedback about the accessibility feature of apps >> and how this should be clearly indicated in the app description. >> I encourage you therefore to use the iTunes Feedback page to submit your >> comments: >> http://www.apple.com/feedback/itunesapp.html."; >> >> "We have checked this a second time again. We do understand that it is >> frustrating to have paid for an application that you won't be able to use, >> but I need to remind you that all sales on the iTunes Store are final. >> >> I just want also to remind you that the App Store is just a commercial >> platform, we do not create most of the apps that are sold on the Store so we >> are unable to guarantee their voice over compatibility. You may wish to >> contact the developer prior to purchasing an app in the future to find out >> if they have this feature." >> >> --end-- >> >> As you can see, they are very clearly not budging. >> >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Neil Barnfather >> >> Talks List Administrator >> Twitter @neilbarnfather >> >> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple >> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >> >> URL: - www.talknav.com >> e-mail: - [email protected] >> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >> >> On 11 Sep 2013, at 15:59, Lisa belville <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi. Is there any way you could share a letter showing how the Apple people >>> were patronizing/unhelpful in this regard? I understand the frustration of >>> not getting a refund for something inaccessible and how a clueless rep >>> makes this all the more annoying, but IMO there's a difference between >>> politely/patiently conveying a policy and being patronizing. Obviously, >>> you can take out any names in this letter, but it would be good to see an >>> example of this attitude. Could it possibly be this particular rep's issue >>> and not necessarily one of Apple itself? I'm referring to the >>> patronizing/unsympathetic attitude and not the policy itself. >>> >>> Lisa >>> >>> >>> >>> There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a >>> paycheck! >>> Lisa Belville >>> [email protected] >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" >>> <[email protected]> >>> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; "The >>> Accessible Phones Discussion List" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:58 AM >>> Subject: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps >>> >>> >>> The below should prove a concern to all Apple accessibility feature users, >>> and I would urge as many of you who can do so, to please write to Apple >>> yourselves to express your concern along the same lines where possible… >>> ([email protected]). >>> >>> For years now Apple has led the way in accessibility standards and >>> application of methods in interacting with all of its product range. >>> Internationally within many disability arenas Apple is celebrated as the >>> defacto standard and is widely acknowledged as users preferred platform for >>> persons with accessibility issues. >>> >>> Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers >>> with accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is >>> that where I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple App >>> Store has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without >>> question. >>> >>> Since Apple do not enforce accessibility standards, nor in anyway >>> whatsoever offer a method of a disabled user to know whether or not an App >>> is, or is not, accessible in advance of purchase, this seemed to be a most >>> reasonable compromise. >>> >>> However, in correspondence over the past week with Apple iTunes support >>> staff via e-mail in relation to an App I have purchased which is >>> inaccessible, Apple's stance has been both surprising and frankly highly >>> dismissive of our needs and vulnerability when using Apple's App Store. >>> >>> I have been point blank refused a refund upon this occasion, with staff >>> suggesting that I could leave a review for the App which others could read, >>> and or write to the developer. Whilst I understand that the second >>> suggestion may illicit a positive response, and sometimes it does… In many >>> instances developers haven't even heard of Voice Over let alone understand >>> what it does and how they aught to address compliance with Apple's >>> Accessibility API's. >>> >>> Of course, the best approach would be for Apple to make compliance with its >>> Accessibility API's a requirement for all new Apps being approved to the >>> App Store, indeed a range of other options would also work, such as; a >>> discount on the 30% cut that Apple takes for compliant Apps, a penalty >>> higher fee (35% etc) for those that do not comply and perhaps indicating >>> with a marker in the App store which Apps do meet the requirements. >>> >>> Since Apple do none of these, despite so publicly professing to up holding >>> and supporting some of the most well implemented accessibility innovation >>> and support seen in the industry, it seemed like a fair compromise that >>> Apple voluntarily and without complication offered a refund to customers >>> who had accessibility needs where an App proved to be inaccessible. >>> >>> The situation now, though is that Apple is refusing in an uncompromising >>> and frankly shocking way to refund such purchases, with patronising and >>> unsympathetic suggestions as to how we, as blind users, go about reviewing >>> Apps etc. >>> >>> I would ask that Apple firstly developed a robust policy in this regard, >>> and secondly, reviews options as to improving the compliance uptake of >>> developers within their iOS and Mac App Stores. >>> >>> So that I can convey your response to the ViPhone, Macvisionaries and >>> other Apple Accessibility user forums promptly, I would sincerely >>> appreciate your earliest feedback and response on this issue. >>> >>> Yours kindly. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Neil Barnfather >>> >>> http://www.NeilBarnfather.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Neil Barnfather >>> >>> Talks List Administrator >>> Twitter @neilbarnfather >>> >>> TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple >>> iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your >>> accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com >>> >>> URL: - www.talknav.com >>> e-mail: - [email protected] >>> Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" >>> Google Group. >>> >>> Post a new message to VIPhone by emailing [email protected]. >>> >>> Search and view the VIPhone archives by visiting >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/. >>> >>> Reach the VIPhone owner and moderators by emailing >>> [email protected]. >>> >>> Unsubscribe and leave VIPhone by emailing >>> [email protected]. >>> >>> More VIPhone group options can be found by visiting >>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "VIPhone" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit 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