I do not share your worries about ground potential jumping to hundreds of kV, but it's always a good idea to run an electrical experiment in a Faraday cage so whatever your reasons they are fine by me.
Now what remains to be found is the dielectric material whose product of dielectric constant by dielectric strength is the highest of all dielectric materials, agreed? Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Horace Heffner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Electron fugacity, deuteron fugacity, and applied fields > > On Aug 1, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Michel Jullian wrote: > >> Dear Horace, when I read in your draft http://www.mtaonline.net/ >> ~hheffner/DeflationFusion.pdf "a cathode can be loaded >> electrolytically from one side, the electrolyte side, and yet be a >> charged to millions of volts at the back side surface", > > That is a fact, by the means I noted. > >> suspicions of heresy can't help rising again, you mean "charged to >> a high surface charge density" don't you? > > > You are right in that my primary contention is indeed that high > electron fugacity is critical. Provided the electron density on the > surface and immediate subsurface greatly exceeds that of neutral > matter the objective is obtained. However, I should also note there > have been experiments, like the Barker experiments, where high > potentials affected radioactive decay rates. That might be quack > stuff, I don't know. I can't explain the Szpak cell so I don't know > for a fact what is important there either. > > > >> The cathode is "at ground potential", you say so yourself in the >> draft, > > Only in one variation though, which may actually end up being a > control. I mention two configurations related to the drawing. I also > noted "The back side surface can interface to a vacuum, high pressure > dry nitrogen, clear HV oil, glass, or any convenient highly > transparent and insulating medium on the high voltage back side of > the cathode." > > >> any high voltage is across an insulator on the ++ anode, right? >> Here is your drawing again for convenience: > > > You cut off the important part below: "A useful variation is to make > the cell high voltage negative, floating the electrolysis power > supply, and making the anode "++" in Figure 1 ground." I *knew* I > should have taken the time to re-do that drawing! > > > > >> >>> GGGGGGGGGGGG >>> G G >>> G G >>> G G >>> G G >>> | + X|G G++ >>> |..+..........X|G G++ >>> | + X|G G++ >>> | + X|G G++ >>> | + X|G G++ >>> ---------------|G G >>> |G G >>> |G G >>> |G G >>> |G G >>> |GGGGGGGGGGGG >>> | >>> Laser >>> >>> Key: >>> -| - Thin glass >>> G - Surface of thick insulator >>> + - Low voltage electrolysis anode >>> X - Thin film CF cathode at ground potential >>> ++ - High voltage anode >>> .. - Electrolyte level >> >> I assure you that what matters for high charge density on the back >> side of your cathode is not the absolute voltage. The charge >> density can be easily derived from basic capacitor design equations >> see e.g. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/ >> pplate.html q=C*V, and C=epsilon*A/d => >> >> q/A = epsilon*V/d = k*epsilon0*V/d >> >> where epsilon0 is permittivity of vacuum, k is the dielectric >> constant of the material, V is capacitor voltage and d is >> dielectric thickness. So a high dielectric constant k helps, and so >> does a high average field V/d (which requires a high dielectric >> strength --usually expressed in kV/mm), but absolute voltage is >> irrelevant, although it will be typically high e.g. if you use a >> 50kV/mm dielectric strength material of thickness 1mm then you will >> have to apply 50kV to get the highest possible charge density. > > I am familiar with this, but it doesn't address the (my) main problem. > > Here is my main mental block on all this. Going with Figure 1 as is, > suppose the ++ anode is at +50 kV relative to ground and there are a > thunderclouds around and the ground is at a potential of 100 kV. The > electron density of the cathode is then very small, certainly at its > top. The anode is at +150 kV. However, this discussion has helped > me a great deal. Thanks Michel! My muddled thinking is mostly > cleared up by putting the experiment in a Faraday cage. The charge > density is then indeed the main goal - by my reconning anyway. It > still may be of some interest to investigate, possibly as a control, > the Szpak perspective that it is the superpositioned field which is > effective, which requires two external HV electrodes around an > electrolysis cell, and in that case it is only the relative > potentials that matter. > > This means the gap between HV anode and cathode can be as small as > convenient, maybe just enough to get a laser beam in, provided the > cathode can be made in a form that is structurally strong. > > >> >> BTW I have a better idea than my previous suggestions for the ++ >> anode material, use an NaCl solution, it's an excellent conductor, >> it's transparent, and it's easy to make an electrical connection to >> (just dip the HV wire into it!), all you need is walls to contain it. > > A good idea. I think there are also some clear plastics around that > conduct, and some coatings too, like the stuff used on solar cells, > but for the hobbyist salt water sounds great. > >> >> Hope this helps, > > Yes indeed. > > Horace Heffner > http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ > > >
