On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 11:14 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > In reply to John Berry's message of Tue, 24 Feb 2009 10:05:35 +1300: > Hi, > >I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support > >communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing that > >created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred and been > so > >dysfunctional as to then fall part. > > > >So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the murder and > >oppression of humanity then say so. > > > >There are many positive examples of something that could be termed > positive > >examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care practiced in > most > >places seems more attractive than the capitalistic version in the US being > >just one example and you don't need to watch Michael Moore's "Sicko" to > >recognize it. > [snip] > There is a trap that almost everyone falls into. It is the assumption that > the > situation is dipolar, when actually it is quadrupolar. > > Rather than just "left" and "right" there is also an "up" and a "down", or > perhaps a better analogy is the 4 points of the compass. > > If East and West are collectivism and capitalism, and North and South are > totalitarianism and anarchy, then all forms of society fall somewhere on > the > plane thus described. > IOW, there is an economic axis (E-W) and an order (or control) axis (N-S).
Indeed, the other day i was looking at: http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html > > > The worst atrocities appear to be committed by peoples that tend toward the > N-S > extremes. I consider the N extreme to be the ideal, though one that people must be ready for, but I am looking at the north end as being labeled libertarian not anarchist which has different connotations. (Libertarian does not bring up images of Sid Viscous and graffiti) I am not sure what atrocities you consider to have been committed by those on the north end of the scale. The most prosperous and happiest societies tend toward the centre. Center is most practical, however it misses the point somewhat in that just because things average out to center does not mean that the correct answer is always the center, sometimes the answer is an extreme. It's like driving a car, the steering wheel position will average out while driving to be centered but if you want to get anywhere you are going to have to turn tight corners. > > > In the N-S direction, you need some measure of control, but not so much as > to > stifle the individual. In the E-W direction you need freely flowing trade, > with > some government interference in some cases. > > By trying to see everything as only E-W, the economic aspects are > frequently > confused with the "order" aspects. > > To take two examples from the real world, China and the US, I would say > that > China is currently approaching the centre on the E-W axis, from the > collectivist > direction, but is still rather strongly totalitarian on the N-S axis. Indeed. > > > With the new administration in Washington, the US is approaching the centre > in > the E-W direction from the capitalistic side. In the N-S direction, it > isn't yet > clear (to me) what direction the new administration is going in, but the > previous administration was clearly going away from the centre in the > totalitarian direction. > > Regards, > > Robin van Spaandonk > > http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html > >
