I agree with John, However, there seems to be a basic misunderstanding
about the difference between capitalism and socialism.
Capitalism works because it is designed to allow each person to make
decisions based on their own self interest. This is called freedom by
people who use simple descriptions. For this system to work properly,
rules have to be agreed to that encourage individual decisions that
benefit society in general, rather than just a few people.
Unfortunately, over the years, the rules have been slowly changed by
the rich and powerful. We now see the result of these changes. We now
need to restore the rules that have been lost. This is NOT socialism.
In contrast, socialism imposes rules that are independent of personal
choice. The rules force choices based on what the government wants.
Some choices must be made at the top and this requirement operates
without objection in all organizations and in various ways in all
governments. The challenge is to find an efficient mixture of
"freedom" and controlled behavior. Unfortunately, too many people in
the US do not think clearly. Consequently, compromises are made that
only benefit people who have the largest self-interest to protect.
This is achieved by keeping the rest of society occupied by fighting
among themselves over irrelevant issues like who is liberal or who is
conservative, or by encouraging an attack of anything that is unwanted
by calling it socialism. If you want to know who is to blame, just
look at what is written here many times by people who have no
understanding about how the world works.
Regards,
Ed
On Feb 23, 2009, at 2:05 PM, John Berry wrote:
I find it incomprehensible that anyone could seriously support
communism/socialism and actually be talking about the same thing
that created some of the greatest atrocities that have ever occurred
and been so dysfunctional as to then fall part.
So if that is not what you mean, if you are not championing the
murder and oppression of humanity then say so.
There are many positive examples of something that could be termed
positive examples of socialism in the west, socialistic health care
practiced in most places seems more attractive than the capitalistic
version in the US being just one example and you don't need to watch
Michael Moore's "Sicko" to recognize it.
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 1:27 AM, grok <[email protected]> wrote:
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As the smoke cleared, John Berry <[email protected]>
mounted the barricade and roared out:
> I think that it is clear to everyone that socialism, communism in
> anything like the form that we have seen in the past is not what
anyone
> is talking about, not even the theory/ideals of Marxism would have
any
> fans.
List hypocrisy and trolling for Ayn Rand aside -- guess what? Reality
doesn't much care what you and your friends think, fella. You're just
regurgitating decades of brainwashing, AFAIC. Doesn't make what you
say
the least true. So what if millions of [ex-]"middle-class" suburban
drones agree with you? They're grasping at straws, right about now.
They'll believe anything in their (whipped-up) hysteria. Even fascism.
Which is the immediate goal of the Rightwing of the U.S. ruling-class,
actually...
You north americans and brits are about to find out the very real
limits
of capitalism -- and all its support structures (like your
totalitarian
mass-propaganda media, for instance). And liberals and even neocon-
fascists can burble-on about the "new green economy" all they want,
too:
your very REAL collective problem _remains_ the capitalist mode of
production itself -- as the entire Planet has just found out, and can
clearly see for itself right now.
'Atlantis' indeed...
Beam me up.
- -- grok.
- --
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