You are back to the scam by DC supply trick. Of course, that is different than the other diode issue that has been shown to be in error.
I do not want to take up any more of the vortex bandwidth explaining these to you. I beg forgiveness of the vortex members for making so many posts and will go back to answering only those that are sensible. I might handle a couple more along the present line just to smooth the transition. :-) Dave -----Original Message----- From: Andrew <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 3:28 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments You mean an annoyance like the advance of the perihelion of Mercury? :) OK, once again you furiously misunderstand. The isolation capacitor is in series between the grid transformer and the wall plug. Behind the wall plug, downstream of that capacitor, a DC power supply is connected in a T configuration. It's possible to do this but you can't just attach a wire. Some circuitry is involved to provide a DC shift without compromising the AC and without blowing up the DC power supply. Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: David Roberson To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments Forget the RF for now. That is another annoyance. Please explain how much DC power will be propagated through that "isolation capacitor". Putting these in place will ensure that no DC can find its way into the device. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Andrew <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 2:31 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments Dave, there are a couple of things wrong with your analysis. First off, the insertion of an isolation capacitor between the main grid transformer and the plug takes care of your "short circuit" problem. And then there's the possibility of injection of RF also, also capacitatively coupled into the plug lines. Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: David Roberson To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments Duncan, Read some of my recent posts and you will see why it will not work. Unless Rossi has hidden a DC source behind the wall plug it does not matter how much DC flows into the control box due to rectification. The input power is uniquely defined by the AC voltage and AC current waveforms leaving the wall. You are mistaken about the DC effects since the transformer driving the building should present a DC short to ground. If not, I suspect major code violations are present. If you continue to insist that Rossi is conducting a scam by altering the power socket then there is no reason to continue with this discussion. If you honestly believe that there is some form of DC trick that can be done with the control box, then we can clear up this misunderstanding. Your call. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Duncan Cumming <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 1:59 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments Actually it is not beyond the bounds of possibility to set up such a demonstration. What exactly do you have in mind, and who would be interested in seeing such a demo? Do you have any contacts on the Rossi team? I don't think Rossi would travel to the USA to see such a demo. Electrical Engineers already know that a diode will convert AC to DC. Pretty much all scientists know that an AC current clamp will not measure DC. (Of course, DC rated Hall effect clamps are available but were not used in the demo, partially because Rossi appears to believe that an AC outlet will only deliver AC current - this is far from being the case). So who would your intended audience be for such a demonstration? Duncan On 5/26/2013 7:26 PM, David Roberson wrote: Not my position. You need to show how it was done. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Duncan Cumming <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Sun, May 26, 2013 9:47 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments So is it your position that a current clamp without a Hall effect unit can measure DC? Mine is that it cannot. Duncan On 5/26/2013 5:34 PM, David Roberson wrote: How do we know that your diode trick will actually do what you think? You need to prove that this is possible, otherwise anyone can make the assumption that it might not work just as with the ECAT tests. If you do not prove that this will work, then why should we accept it as a possibility? A lot of time and energy is being wasted trying to see if bull frogs can fly. Some might actually be born with wings. Have we proven that none of them can fly? Rossi and the testers have done a lot to prove that the ECAT works. No one has proven that it does not. The only offers from the other side of the table assume fraud. Is this a valid position for them to take? Dave -----Original Message----- From: Duncan Cumming <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Sun, May 26, 2013 8:18 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments I am not trying to assert anything as fact. I am merely pointing out that a simple diode inside the controller box (to which access was forbidden by Rossi) COULD HAVE given the observed results. I am NOT saying that it, in fact, did, merely speculating that it could have. For any scientific experiment, the onus is on the experimenters to produce the result. The best way to do this is to provide sufficient information for others to replicate the experiment. Duncan On 5/26/2013 5:07 PM, David Roberson wrote: Perhaps you should build one of these scam machines and prove that it will work without being detected. That would be the best way to show that it is possible. Why should we accept this assertion as fact any more than believing that the testers missed finding the scam? We can spend an equal amount of time knocking down any theory that is put forth as others can spend assuming they are real. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Duncan Cumming <[email protected]> To: vortex-l <[email protected]> Sent: Sun, May 26, 2013 7:59 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describes power measurments "The only possibility to fool the power-meter then is to raise the DC voltage on all the four lines" This turns out not to be the case. You could also draw DC current through any of the lines, which current would not register on the clamps. The simplest way to do this would be just to use a diode in series with the heating element. Since power = current x voltage x pf, it is NOT necessary to change the voltage in order to change the power. Duncan On 5/26/2013 2:21 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > A Swedish correspondent sent me this link: > > http://www.energikatalysatorn.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=560&sid=5450c28dab532569dee72f88a43a56f0&start=330 > > This is a discussion in Swedish, which Google does a good job > translating. Before you translate it, you will see that in the middle > of it is a message from one of the authors, Torbjörn Hartman, in > English. Here it is, with a few typos corrected. > > QUOTE: > > Remember that there were not only three clamps to measure the > current on three phases but also four connectors to measure the > voltage on the three phases and the zero/ground line. The protective > ground line was not used and laid curled up on the bench. The only > possibility to fool the power-meter then is to raise the DC voltage on > all the four lines but that also means that the current must have an > other way to leave the system and I tried to find such hidden > connections when we were there. The control box had no connections > through the wood on the table. All cables in and out were > accounted for. The E-cat was just lying on the metal frame that was > only free-standing on the floor with no cables going to it. The little > socket, where the mains cables from the wall connector where connected > with the cables to the box and where we had the clamps, was screwed to > the wood of the bench but there was no screws going through the metal > sheet under the bench. The sheet showed no marks on it under the > interesting parts (or elsewhere as I remember it). Of course, if the > white little socket was rigged inside and the metal screws was long > enough to go just through the wood, touching the metal sheet > underneath, then the bench itself could lead current. I do > not remember if I actually checked the bench frame for cables > connected to it but I probably did. However, I have a close-up picture > of the socket and it looks normal and the screws appear to be of > normal size. I also have pictures of all the connectors going to the > powermeter and of the frame on the floor. I took a picture every day > of the connectors and cables to the powermeter in case anyone would > tamper with them when we were out. > > I lifted the control box to check what was under it and when doing so > I tried to measure the weight and it is muck lighter than a car > battery. The box itself has a weight, of course, and what is in it can > not be much. > > All these observations take away a number of ways to tamper with > our measurements but there can still be things that we "didn't think > of" and that is the reason why we only can claim "indications of" and > not "proof of" anomalous heat production. We must have more control > over the whole situation before we can talk about proof. > > Best regards, > Torbjörn > > END QUOTE > > - Jed >
