I hope to see things move along quickly too. I also hope that the other communities such as VOS see the benefits of working synergistically with VRML/X3D. Peter and Reed seem to be heading that way. Ideas being carried back and forth in an open spirit will ensure a real metaverse will come into being whatever it turns out to be. I think it takes a few generations but eventually, we all get what we want. Being from the generation of markup technologists that were working prior to the web, I find the web very satisfying in meeting the visions we had in the 70s and 80s, but also a little scary in too many of the nightmares we predicted coming around. Almost all of the bad stuff was predicted too; it turned out it couldn't be stopped. Mammal desires and fishbrain governance seem to be a permanent fixture of the user base. When I need to let the curmudgeon out, I blog at
lamammals.blogspot.com But less frequently these days. I think what Parisi has in mind combined with the Network Sensor node work is important in making it possible for the current standalone spaces to be linked up with less detailed knowledge of the network protocols. A big complaint is that mere mortals find this hard to do. VRML was originally aimed not so much at Snowcrash although some believed it to be as to making it as easy to create 3D as to create HTML. Even that is a little hosed because graphics are harder to do in general. By iteration, it has come closer to the sweet spot where a bit of effort on the part of the author met by a lot of effort on the part of the browser and language developers is reaching more people. A most important goal is to hang on to the values of open accessibility for anyone who really wants to do it rather than land locking it into POTS server farms. Both models have their place, but only the first one has an upfront guarantee of keeping the content IP separated from the server-side IP. Then I think the next step is exactly as you say: for the projects like VOS which will require more sophisticated skills to produce more sophisticated worlds just as the old gray HTML anchored pages have given way to the CSS-enabled, Javascript/embedded object driven XML-connected Web 2.0. This is cool, but nothing a client-server couldn't do in 1990, just free of the operating system platform so not landlocked. Those are the spirals I've seen over a long career; first a few and mystifyingly, then a lot and with more reach and scale. My positive contribution these days is to write tutorial pieces for young kids just getting into this based on the technology they can afford: 3Donthewebcheap.blogspot.com For guys my age, that is the best thing we can do: hold a door open. For guys building VOS, the best thing to do is build the stairway on the other side. That is how it works generation after generation. It's a nice way to spend a career. It really is. Must go back to lurk. Men at work here. Cheers, len -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Taylor Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 3:38 PM To: VOS Discussion Subject: Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement Well, if VRML had problems with too much hype early on that it couldn't deliver, I kinda feel the same way about the next yet-another-social-space promising the "metaverse." But I guess most people don't really take that term the same way I do. There is a lot of wisdom in what you've written. I can tend to be idealistic -- if I had been involved back in the early days of VRML, I probably would have been at the frontlines of the disputes about its "vision" :) ... However, I think we've learned a lot about what it takes to do large-scale immersive shared environments, and technology has grown a lot since those early days of VRML, and I think some of these visions are a bit more attainable and realistic now. I'm afraid that the bad experiences of VRML are almost making people too cautious and pessimistic in this area. But yeah, I should probably hold my tongue a bit more whenever new hype floats around for the next-big-virtual-world-thing. I do still stand by the criteria I listed in the first post, though, and really hope to see a standard emerge that can support those kinds of features. Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Len Bullard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'VOS Discussion'" <vos-d@interreality.org> Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [vos-d] Flux Worlds Server Announcement > >First of all I should mention that I don't speak for VOS/Interreality 3D -- > > >which you seem to be assuming I do. I'm just an enthusiast following their > >progress and hoping to contribute a bit. > > I've lurked on the list for a few years now. There are lots of projects but > this one has staying power based on the core of people building it. That I > support. I am a VRML content builder among other things, but I support > real-time 3D in general. > > >I know what *I* want the metaverse > >to be, and I'm especially annoyed at the Lindens for attempting to > >appropriate the term and therefore am a bit sensitive to new press releases > >making hype about the "metaverse." And that's basically it. > > That will only frustrate. The press, the Lindens, their investors, all will > work hard to create a patina of invention and legitimacy up to and including > rewriting history. That is how the web was won. Can you imagine how > irritating it was for the SGML hypertext community to read that Tim > Berners-Lee had *invented* hypertext and THE hypertext markup language? The > history wasn't that well known so it worked at scale. Hype works. > Investors expect it. The way to fight that is to correct the press, but > don't fight over terms like *metaverse*. It is already a hype term that has > very little meaning. > > What is a 'metaverse'? > > We have the same problems with 'virtual reality'. It is just a genre of > real-time 3D. VOS has yet to find a genre that is easily summarized. That > might be good because it continues to fly under the radar. About the worst > thing that can happen is to have the press locusts descend on it before it > is ready. I can't count the number of web projects gone South that I've > seen because the fringes decided it needed a big press boost or more cred > than it had earned. Of such is a bubble made. > > The VRMLers are careful to acknowledge VRML's roots in practical commercial > products, eg, SGI Open Inventor. As a result, when a blogger or press > release talks about how VRML was created on the web, but is not a practical > product, it is easy to point to the evolution from the SGI product line and > correct that. One thing the press really hates is to have their credibility > ripped from them with factual reporting. > > >I do think -- if they do it right -- Flux Worlds will be a useful product > >and an important step in open-standard virtual-worlds. But I maintain that > >it's an evolutionary step, not a revolutionary one -- > > There are revolutions of technology and revolutions of scale and market. > HTML was not a revolution. It was a design that was decades old. The > markup design was essentially the work of Truly Donovan, not Tim or Dan. > The US Army had a DTD-less stylesheet driven markup hypertext browser years > before XML. HTTP is even less of a revolution. In combination, they caused > a scaling effect that was a market revolution. A generation of > not-very-adept programmers picked it up and did cool things with it, but the > generation that took it to the next level was already very adept and mostly > 40-somethings. The press didn't find that very good reading. Fifteen years > later, none of it matters, but don't underrate the power of the press to > fuel a revolution in market where there was no revolution in technology. > > > and it's no reason >not to aim farther ahead, or to abandon all alternate > > paths. > > I agree and those paths are also no reason to slag the sincere and working > efforts of the VRMLers to get the next piece of their puzzle in place > because of the term 'metaverse'. The press made the term popular, not the > technologists. You don't own it. The Lindens don't. Parisi doesn't. > Everyone will use it as they see fit. It may even die fast because it is a > hype term subject to dissolution because it has no insolvent core meaning. > > >Also, as far >as I've seen, VOS isn't making lots of "publicity" or > >"preannouncements" -- > >Peter, Reed et al have been quietly working away for a few years trying to > >get a good base technology working from the ground up. And they *do* have > >running code. > > I know. I keep track. I am waiting to see what this emerges as because so > far, it is *geekSpeakBound* and while that is good for the programmers, it > won't mean a thing to the content developers or the market. I'm waiting for > that synergy when hot content and new technology merge. I warn you though, > technology is largely invisible. If VOS creates yetAnotherSocialSpace, it > is an also ran. Customers are never wowed by how neat your classes are. > > >So I'm really not sure where a lot of your comments are coming from. > > 25+ years of experience. Don't get hung up on the terms or claims to > primacy as if this project were THE Metaverse. That will just earn these > guys enemies where they don't earn them themselves and critics where it > isn't in need of critique. So far, VOS is a small personal project with a > mail list and some running code, but nothing yet to show that will impress > the market. > > I am impressed by the staying power of the core contributors. I've learned > that is the single most important quality to look for when tracking > different projects competing in an emerging market. The Lindens have it and > that is why they are ahead of everyone in mindshare. The VRMLers have it > and that is why they are still standing post-dot.bomb blowout. They > eviscerated themselves internally with fights over "the vision" with exactly > the kinds of posts people make when they get jealous or feel left out. A > vision is good, but core community focus on the work at hand is what will > get you to the goal. Don't lose it over *words*. Don't bother to care. > > In entertainment, if someone else releases a new movie, album, whatever and > it gets a lot of attention, the best thing is to send congratulations, best > wishes, hope to see you on the road, then get back to the next session. The > worst thing to do is to be on record making cutting remarks unless you are > correcting factual errors. I root for the Lindens because their success > makes a real-time 3D market bigger and more credible. I build with VRML > because ten years later, my content still runs on tools built last week. It > will not run at SL and ten years from now, SL content may not run at all > anywhere. That is their next job and they are probably savvy enough to know > that. > > len > > > > _______________________________________________ > vos-d mailing list > vos-d@interreality.org > http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d > _______________________________________________ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d _______________________________________________ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
