Okay, my absolute last post on this nonsense.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >
> > Ok, name ONE person in any government that isn't a liar. Maybe you will
> > find one somewhere in a backwater town.
>
> > As many of my friends know my stance on this. Who really gives a sh*t what
> > Bill does on his free time. As far as anyone knows he didn't give ayway any
> > top secret information and I am glad at that.
>
> I thought he was elected to represent us... Now, that might not be
> so bad, except I do think he has made somewhat of a fool of his office,
> our nation and us. I don't like being made a fool of, do you?
No, but I haven't liked it under a single president since Carter,
either. None of them are impeached, and they *did* support high crimes
and misdemeanors. Not only that, the actions related to arms sales and
central america directly resulted in the deaths of American soldiers
caught in the web of all of that. This was a far greater insult to
democracy.
> The other part was that he swore to uphold the constitution and the
> law of the land. From what I read and heard, it seems rather clear to me
> that, lawyereese or not, he made some clear and persistent effort to
> prevent that other girl he offended from getting justice. Further, he
> lied to his bosses and prompted other of his staff and cabinet members to
> tell falsehoods to their bosses -- us! Sounds like a firing offense to
> me. What they call that, perjury, obstruction of justice. Sounds rather
> bad to me.
The clear intent of the founding fathers, no matter how many times
Madison and others are misquoted, was that you could be impeached for
selling out America. Traitor-level stuff. Nothing else.
While that may be fireable, it is not impeachable. Impeachment is not
firing, and is not meant to be. If it were that easy to impeach,
impeachment would simply be another method for a political coup (which
Americans tend to loudly despise when it happens elsewhere in blatant
violation of democratic processes). that is what it is being used for
here, and it is wrong.
I don't like Clinton and didn't vote for him. I despise what he did.
I equally despise the Republicans for their handling of it, their
childish approach to things and their blatant self-serving efforts that
are equally, if not (over the long run, more) devastating to American
interests and ideals than anything Clinton seems to have done.
Most importantly, I reocgnize that we have seen only one small part of
the story, and only from one viewpoint. I have seen enough, personally,
to know there is very little chance that spending any money on this will
lead to discoveries to convince me there is a threat to America
underneath all of this (unless that threat is the simple issue of
spending time on this at all).
> > >He is a liar, and if you support his denial and absolute disregard
> > >with respect to the law. Then the democracy that has been fought and
> > >died for is a joke to you and the democrats.
See above. It has nothing to do with Democrats alone, and Republicans
let a lot of people die in the past fighting against situations
politicians created without our approval.
>
> The constitution says that high crimes and misdemeanors are grounds
> for impeachment. I do believe that perjury, conspiracy, and obstruction
> of justice are at least misdemeanors, if not felonies or "high crimes".
No, they are not. That reads "high crimes and misdemeanors" but means
'High crimes and high misdemeanors'. The "high" qualifies both words.
If you could show one shred of proof that Monica Lewinsky had state
secrets whispered into her ears, you'd have a high crime. Right now,
you have very minor offenses that less than 1% of all similar offenders
in America go to jail for.
> I seem to recall something being said about some hundred people in
> government residences for perjury. I see no reason why we should make an
> exception for him. I wholeheartedly support moving him to those quarters
> where he may serve some time as a living example to others whom we might
> appoint to represent us.
That's 100, of an estimated 14,000 cases per year . . . and that's only
the ones they can prove. I've seen numbers with as many as 100K cases
of expected perjury per year.
>
> Corporations threw out public representatives like OJ and "The Glove"
> Jackson for lesser reasons than convicted offenses. I see no reason why
> we citizens should put up with a man who has made a fool of us in public.
> While I do not think we need to turn him out on the streets, (lest he be a
> menace to the ladies,) I really do believe we should persuade him to leave
> for smaller quarters in some other government facility.
The only people making a fool of the public are the people continually
pushing this. Right now, the world needs an undistracted president.
Kosovo is threatening to seed a regional war. Bangladesh has been
almost eliminated by flooding. The IMF crisis and stock fears has
reduced our wealth by 40% this year. The US unpaid UN debt of 1.5
billion is setting back working efforts that the funding is drying up
for--which means we'll have to pay all over again to regain that
ground. US productivity has suffered to the tune of more than $500
million from nothing more than people wasting time consuming Monica
Lewinsky BS.
The cost of ignoring these issues to pursue this ridiculous affair is
staggering. Is continued attention to this really worth mortgaging
parts of our future for?
And OJ and the glove were not even remotely public representatives.
They were sales pitches.
> Whom do you want to represent you?
None of the above. I want to be represented by people who represent me,
not some party. I want third parties to have a chance, to be entitled
equally to funding with Reps and Dems, and these stupid seniority rules
in Congress that prevent true innovators from ever gaining real power to
be abolished.
But that would be campaign finance reform. The Republicans must be
giddy that they can drop that for another year or two while we drag out
this other nonsense.
> Whom do you want to be an example to your children? And to the world?
Ghandi. Martin Luther. Einstein. Madame Curie.
Why are people compaining that Bill Clinton isn't a role model when they
called him Slick Willy BEFORE they even elected him?
Do you believe Congress is some how acting like role models? Buncha
spoiled brats playing games, IMHO. Not a handful of role models among
them.
> Sad that island in San Francisco Bay is no longer available; I am
> sure he would have enjoyed the sunsets. I know most of us would enjoy
> seeing the sun set on him!
No matter what had happened, that wouldn't be an option. Besides, Ollie
North, George Bush and the others who have potentially (probably)
committed true high crimes wouldn't want to share it with him.
This has gone on far too long. It's not about truth, it's not about
justice--it's about knee jerk reactions and personal agendas. It's
about who gets to be in power, and who doesn't, and hedging their bets
for the millenium. It's about political games and is turning into a
slow attempted coup. But make no mistake whatsoever--not one person on
either side of this issue REALLY has American interests at stake, or
they would have dropped it long ago, played it privately and used the
balances that came out to advance our interests, not to mire them in
soundbytes and self-serving publicity opportunities.
If this kind of crap were happening to an overseas leader we supported,
the US government would be furious such nonsense would be allowed to
govern a democratic debate.
And that was the point of Suz's original petition post. It wasn't about
guilt or innocence. It was about waking up, realizing there is clearly
nothing impeachable here and no threat to American interests but the
continued attention to the issue itself. There are many, many emotional
and philosophical reasons to continue this debate -- and we should, just
as we discuss abortion, gun control, the role of religion in america,
etc. -- but not a single logical or practical one that require stopping
everything for it. I don't care if the pundits and Congress talk about
it for the next 50 years--but only after their jobs have been done and
America's true interests forwarded, and our badly needed role in the
world right now filled. People can complain all they want about how
children perceive this, but when you start to look around, it's becoming
increasingly clear that if we don't start kicking people in the butt and
getting them to address the world's (and America's) problems, that kind
of concern is going to be a luxury for our children anyway.
Rant over.
Brett
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