Johan Compagner wrote:
So hibernate won't be used by you and by anybody working on apache
projects??
I do use hibernate for clients, but only when they make the decision for LGPL
themselves.
In apache projects hibernate indeed is not allowed.
Note: within the ASF a discussion is going on (also referred to in the
serverside discussion)
about it and I'm following that closely, and *maybe* for specific LGPL projects
(like
Hibernate which has provided an extended interpretation of the LGPL themselves)
they will
make an exception. But then only under very strict rules and most probably only
for future
projects, not for any of the existing projects.
Or is it that they clearly state that they are interpreting lgpl this
way and are allowing them into commercial projects?
But if this is the case then maybe we should have 2 kinds of extention
projects
one based on lgpl and the other based on the supported licenses..
So that not all of wicket-extentions are not accessible for users not
wanting to develop in lgpl
That would be my choice if binding to some LGPL code really is needed.
I am reading the serverside thread also. But the big question remains
if i can't use lgpl in a commercial non opensource project that i make.
And i only use it not change
it or something (just linking/compiling against it)
What is then the difference with gpl?
Problems might arise when you provide a *library* as product which is used
by others to *derive* new projects from, which is the case with Wicket.
Simple *usage* of Wicket would be no problem, no more than using Linux, Sun JDK
etc. But for Wicket there is not much usage in only *using* it. Developers
need to extend (hard link) Wicket objects and as such are binding into its
license. With our ASL 2.0 license, there is no problem if you then want to
redistribute your product. But when Wicket is (hard)linking LGPL code, things
can become very different. It then all depends how the usage of the LGPL
code is interpreted and by whom.
johan
Ate Douma wrote:
Well, I'm not a fan of licensing stuff either and INAL etc.
But, I think it *is* of utmost importance, especially for framework
projects like Wicket.
I would advise all the team members to read and follow the recent
(this week) discussion
started on the ServerSide about this exact subject:
http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=36156
This thread is already massive and contains besides very interesting
and valuable opinions
also a lot of rubbish as usually.
As I said, INAL, but the one thing that's very clear to me from that
discussion is that
choosing the appropriate license *and* complying to it is not to be
taken lightly and can
be tricky to say the least.
Using LGPL licensed code especially is very dangerous in my book,
because everyone seems
to have a different interpretation of it.
Maybe the LGPL is crystal clear in legal terms in the end, but as long
as so many people
disagree about what it really means, I don't trust it...
Most notably in the discussion on the ServerSide is the unexpected
trick Rickard Öberg is
now playing on JBoss by declaring all his original work within the
JBoss codebase (which is
a massive amount) to be GPL from now on:
http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=36156#182919
Checkout section 3) of the LGPL for a clarification.
This might end up as being nonsense and of no consequence, and maybe not.
I really don't know but I love to find out how this will work out.
Anyways, for Wicket, I didn't know yet it already depends (and
contains) LGPL code.
Turns out the DatePicker embeds and uses the calendar javascript
library from
http://dynarch.com/mishoo/calendar.epl.
First of all, as result of that, I think we need to distribute the
LGPL license with the
Wicket extension library as required by section 1) of the license.
Not complying with that is a violation of the LGPL.
Furthermore, (and this one is very important to me as Apache
committer) this also means usage
of the Wicket extensions is no longer possible for Apache projects as
the ASF doesn't allow any
LGPL binding. While this is a restriction only from the ASF itself and
not purely based on
the ASL 2.0 license of Wicket (it *is* allowed to bind to LGPL if you
want), many companies
won't allow using the Wicket extensions anymore because they don't
trust LGPL either.
I've worked myself on a commercial project which didn't allow any LGPL
based or linked software
because they didn't trust that license and couldn't be sure about the
consequences.
Reading the discussion on theServerSide again reinforced that I have
to agree on that assessment.
So, I think I need to make my position clear on this matter.
Binding Wicket extensions to LGPL (as it already does) makes it
useless to me and many others.
And binding Wicket core to LGPL would make the whole framework useless
to me and many others.
I do think it is important to be very careful about all this. Some
choices can end up to have
irreversible consequences and in my view seriously endanger the
acceptance of Wicket...
Eelco Hillenius wrote:
Yeah, I don't know. I allways hated the licencing stuff. Wish there
were just two licences. However, we allready depend on some LGPL
licences and I have seen a lot of other Apache 2 style projects do
that too. I can't imagine this becomming an actual problem. But if
someone would be so kind to explain the details/ in-outs that would be
nice.
It would really suck if when you choose for Apache 2, you couldn't use
LPGL at all, and if you choose LGPL, you couldn't use Apache 2 at all.
I'm pretty sure I speak for 95% percent of the programmers if I say
I'm really not that into the details; as a customer I want to know
whether I can ship it with commercial projects, and - maybe - whether
I can ajust the source and ship it.
Eelco
On 9/2/05, Igor Vaynberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If the license is such a big issue why not just keep this project as
contrib
instead of extension, that way the license doesn't really matter.
-Igor
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
Ate Douma
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 12:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Wicket-user] Integrating FCKeditor
Nick Heudecker wrote:
I'm looking to integrate a JavaScript WYSIWYG editor into Wicket,
similar to DatePicker. FCKeditor is LGPL, so I don't think
there's a
licensing problem. Any thoughts or advice before I start
doing this?
I have no opinion (yet) on the technical merits of FCKeditor
or any other editor.
But, I'm not in favor of introducing LGPL as Wicket is under
the Apache 2.0 license.
LGPL really cannot be seen as comparable nor compatible to
the Apache 2.0 license and in my opinion introducing it now
might harm acceptability of Wicket in the end.
There are other options with more compatible licenses,
although I don't know if they match FCKeditor on features and
technical quality.
For one, there is kupu which has a BSD-style license.
I haven't used or worked with it myself, but I know others
have embedded it very successfully in several CMS engines,
like Zope, Apache Lenya and recently Apache Graffito which
uses it for editing html documents within a JSR-168 compliant portlet.
If you are interested: http://kupu.oscom.org/ Online docs are
available from their subversion repository:
http://codespeak.net/svn/kupu/trunk/kupu/doc/
Regards,
Ate
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