Hi,
The line:
| status = EN
is copied out of the source of the English article "tiger" with the
other lines of wikicode as well. That's the reason why the identifiers
are left latin.
All what I wanted to show is, that it is still possible to use the
actual infoboxes and fill them with data of wiki-data, as it is also
possible to use the wiki-data facts in continuous text. This is not a
try of a draft for new info-boxes.
Of course it is nonsense to specify a language or identifiers in a
future infobox except for overriding. For example, if you want to make a
howto-page for wikipedia and show that the same infobox can use in
different languages on one single page this should be possible as well.
Or -- as I already pointed out -- the "precision" may vary on different
language versions.
Marco
On 2012-06-16 16:01, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi,
I do not understand why it should be necessary to specify that a
specific language is to be used. When a template is used on the English
Wikipedia, the choice for English is a function of the Wiki and its text
being in English. Another reason why it is not necessary to specify the
language is because when you use a value in the free text, you expect it
to be formatted in the manner compatible with the language of that text.
Also in the way you indicate the template you leave the labels in Latin.
This does not make sense; the labels are part of Wikidata and they can
be translated as well.
Thanks,
Gerard
On 16 June 2012 12:58, Marco Fleckinger <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi,
are we really speaking about the same?
- Pure data serving should be possible there is no disagree here
as I think.
- Should infoboxes be provided?
I was not speaking about the possibility for Wikipedia then. At
least I did not meant it. I more likely wanted to point out that we
should separate the infrastructure generating those infoboxes from
this used for serving the data.
Having this in my mind I was thinking a bit more wide and questioned
if creating the templates for the infoboxes itself should really be
part of wikidata or if it should be part of the further development
of the rendering engine to provide an easy possibility to fill the
infoboxes with data.
It will be probably the easiest way to separate this into more steps:
The first should be to provide an easy way to integrate single
properties into the article's pure text. Inside the article
[[en:Tiger]] we are then able to write sentences like:
"In 1929, the British taxonomist Reginald Innes Pocock subordinated
the species under the genus {{wikidata:tiger:genus}} using the
scientific name
{{wikidata:tiger:bionomial___name}}.<ref>{{wikidata:tiger:__ref4646413}}</ref>"
Inside an infobox it should also be possible to use those facts:
{{Taxobox
| status = EN
...
| regnum = [[{{wikidata:tiger:regnume}}]]
| phylum = [[{{wikidata:tiger:phylum}}]]
| classis = [[{{wikidata:tiger:classis}}]]
| ordo = [[{{wikidata:tiger:ordo}}]]
| familia = [[{{wikidata:tiger:familia}}]]
| genus = ''[[{{wikidata:tiger:genus}}]]__''
...
}}
I know this looks very silly, but should be possible anyway by
providing the possibility to use facts inside flowing text. If
somebody likes it, he could use it like this or wait until the next
step.
The next step should be to upgrade the infobox templates to teach
them to not just use single facts. They should also be able to use
"data-structures" as they are called in C/C++. I always thought that
this is not part of wikidata, more part of the rendering engine.
This also needs to work in multiple steps for correct rendering of
e.g. one of the above wikidata-requests: For a request for
"{{wikidata:tiger:regnume}}" "[[Animal]]ia" should be returned. The
link location and the shown text are not the same. The birthday of
Barack Obama should be anything like "[[4. August]] [[1961]]", as
this format is used very often in the German Wikipedia. This example
should show that this format is necessary, because of two different
links.
So the first part of rendering should be the replacement all
occurrences of the wikidata-tags. Here we can also replace the
"{{infobox:wikidata:tiger}}" by what is already used inside the
source text.
The first step should generate source text in the style we already
know. Then we could use the next step to render the article shown in
the browser.
Marco
On 2012-06-16 11:09, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi,
I absolutely agree that Wikidata should be able to serve data in an
unformatted way. I absolutely disagree that there is no need for
serving
data formatted in info boxes. Consider this use case:
Someone translated the texts associated with all the popes in Xhosa.
There are no articles on popes in the Xhosa Wikipedia but
because of the
information and the info box in Wikidata it is possible to include
information in Xhosa on the not found page together with the
interwiki
data. As this information is well presented, it makes sense for
people
to volunteer and translate Wikidata texts, as this information
is well
presented, people do select a language that provides information
on the
subject.
Consequently being able to serve pure data does not imply that
it should
not serve formatted data. Technically there is nothing stopping
us from
doing both.
Thanks,
Gerard
On 15 June 2012 19:55, Marco Fleckinger
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:marco.fleckinger@__gmail.com
<mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
Hallo,
On 2012-06-14 12:33, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
Hoi,
Technically there is nothing stopping Wikidata from
hosting multiple
infoboxes on the same subject. The big thing about such
infoboxes is
that their layout is the same for all subjects in the
same category.
This does not mean that every one looks the same but it does
mean they
follow a consistent pattern.
Providing multiple infobox templates for the same subject is
a very
good point, as it is not necessary to override (see below)
on each
single page of a language version.
When people talk about things like colours and stuff, it
becomes
highly
emotional but in the final analysis at this stage it is just
more bike
shedding. It should be obvious that attributes like
colour can be
overriden.. Given that info boxes will not be supported
in the near
future ...
I agree that overriding attributes should be possible. The
pages of
different Wikimedia-projects sometimes look very different in
colours and so on.
Just think of "acceptable view":
Overriding should be possible on two different positions:
# Style-sheet:
Example: The box may behave different if we use
"Lista de correo electrónico" instead of
"Mailing list" as a key word
# Rendering:
* Value-conversion: different units and languages.
** −459,67 °F = 0 °Ra = −218,52 °R = −273,15 °C = 0 K
** city(48°8′24″N 11°34′30″E) = "Munich" = "München" =
"Múnich" = "Monaco di Baviera" ...
* Precision:
** π shown as "3.1415926" with precision 7
** extended to subjects like locations of e.g. shopping
malls more or less precision is wanted. For example
the location of [[de:Europark_(____Einkaufszentrum)]]:
*** "Salzburg (City), Austria" (for zh.wikipedia.org
<http://zh.wikipedia.org>
<http://zh.wikipedia.org>)
*** "Salzburg, Austria" (for de.wikipedia.org
<http://de.wikipedia.org>
<http://de.wikipedia.org>)
*** "Taxham, Salzburg" (for
http://salzburg.com/wiki)
The notion that people should curate the info boxes
locally is
something
that I do not subscribe to. Not being able to agree on
data and
sources
is the same as not being able to reach a neutral point
of view. This
does not mean that multiple sources may not agree but
equally it
does
not mean that different sources cannot be maintained
from within
Wikidata.
Finally, when Wikidata provides data and info boxes, it
does not
mean
that any project is compelled to use it. As Wikidata
matures, it
will
become increasingly clear that it is not the best practice.
Thanks,
I'm not a server specialist and not an excellent developer
but due
to the fact that it should also be possible to use pure data
outside
of wikimedia, data providing and page rendering should be
seperated
strict from each other.
Wikidata should therefore only be responsible for retrieving
data
with correct precision, value conversion and mode as
requested. The
rendering engine, not part of Wikidata, should be
responsible for
creating the HTML-code of the whole article including that
of the
infobox as well.
GerardM
On 14 June 2012 12:11, Gregor Hagedorn
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>__>
<mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
<mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>__>__>> wrote:
While I agree that it is desirable to support simple,
preformatted
Infoboxes that can, with minimal effort be re-used in a
large number
of language versions of Wikipedia, I strongly
disagree with
the demand
to make this the only choice.
I think the present Wikidata approach to allow local
Wikipedias to
customize their infoboxes by accessing wikidata
properties
property-by-property is the right path.
The large Wikipedias with many editors have invested
considerable
creative energy into making quite a large number of
infoboxes
elaborate information containers. That includes
formatting,
images and
hand-crafted links in both the "field name" and the
"field
value"
side. Some values are expressed through svg
graphics, other
values
expressed through background color coding, etc.
Limiting the usability of Wikidata to plain vanilla
infox
boxes could
cause considerable resistance in these communities. And
although small
Wikipedia will profit a lot from Wikidata, without the
engagement of
editors from the large Wikipedias into curating Wikidata
content, the
increased synergies will not happen.
Another issue is that (I believe that) Wikidata does not
have a notion
of ordering properties. Correct? This is no issue
for the
present
Wikidata approach because infoboxes remain curated
in each local
Wikipedia. However, in a centralized "one size fits all"
approach,
replacing existing infoboxes where information is
presented in a
logical order with an alphabetical property order would
create huge
resistance (and would be a complex issue that
Wikidata would
have to
deal with, allowing property ordering and filtering).
I believe that Wikidata correctly aims to provide a
smooth
transition
path, where it is possible to obtain only part of an
infobox
from
wikidata and inject wikidata content into existing
infobox
layouts.
That said: I would encourage a third party
contributor to try to
create a default Wikidata infobox generator in a way
(extension
installable in multiple Wikipedias) that enables a
wikipedia to
autocreate a good looking, plain vanilla infobox with
minimal effort.
Gregor
Marco
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