Hoi,
You lost me. What have classes to do with this?
The system is flexible and you assume that there are special cases... Name
one and it can be fit in.
Thanks,
GerardM
On 11 June 2014 11:48, Thomas Douillard <[email protected]> wrote:
> There is always special cases that needs special treatments, inference is
> done again and again, there is no point to recompute everything with an
> algorithm or a query with hard coded exceptions when we have a simple and
> regular system who can handle and put the exceptions in the datas.
>
> Class of classes is such a system. I'll quote the python programming
> language motto here "explicit is better than implicit", which is not really
> different from "avoid redundances at all cost is not always a good thing".
>
> The same reason we have classes in the first time, can also apply to
> classes of classes. Some class membership can be inferred by a query, I
> don't think it's always a bad idea to state the membership explicitely in
> all cases.
>
>
> 2014-06-11 11:21 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]>:
>
> Hoi,
>> A bot run by Amir has remedied many of the issues that resulted from an
>> import of data for the United States. The fix was to only point to one
>> level up and not have a reference to the state from every location. It is
>> implicitly there.. in the final analysis we do not need to know in what
>> country something is as it can be inferred.
>>
>> This system assumes that we build the upper layers as is relevant to a
>> specific country,. So yes it is usable for any country, type of
>> administrative or territorial entity including how for instance the Roman
>> Catholic church does its thing.
>> Thanks,
>> Gerard
>>
>>
>> On 11 June 2014 11:08, Thomas Douillard <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, Gerard, I don't understand, As needed for what ?
>>> In your example it is enough to retrieve all the territorial entities a
>>> location is in.
>>>
>>> But let's say I want to get the administrative territorial organisation
>>> of France (Wikipedias probably ), I mean like "france is divided in
>>> regions, regions are divided in departments, and so on), for example, do we
>>> have enough in your model ?
>>>
>>> I propose to add to the classes like <French Region> for example an
>>> "instance of" claim that states <French Region> instance of <French
>>> administrative division type> to reflect that in Wikidata.
>>>
>>> Then if I want to know how france is administratively divided, I query
>>> all the instances in that class.
>>>
>>> This is a complement to <Pays de la Loire> instance of <French region>
>>> for example.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2014-06-11 10:37 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <[email protected]>:
>>>
>>> Hoi,
>>>> Important to recognise is that there can be as many layers as are
>>>> needed.. ie a roller coaster can be in a park, a park can be in a
>>>> settlement, a settlement in a municipality, a municipality in a county, a
>>>> county in a province, a province in a state and finally a state in a
>>>> country (that is on a continent)...
>>>>
>>>> This is how it effectively is already in Wikidata for many "locations"
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Gerard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11 June 2014 09:48, Thomas Douillard <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi, I basically proposed a two layers model in extended discussions :
>>>>> Administrative units | Administrative unit type | Administrative unit
>>>>> classes by country
>>>>> City Of London | City of the UK | Type of
>>>>> administrative unit of the UK
>>>>> Lorraine | French Region | Type of
>>>>> administrative unit of France
>>>>>
>>>>> Where going one step left in the table reads ''instance of''. This
>>>>> seem close to your ''helper item'' model.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2014-06-10 13:44 GMT+02:00 Markus Krötzsch <
>>>>> [email protected]>:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/06/14 11:11, Luca Martinelli wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We may possibly use an ad hoc item "City of United Kingdom",
>>>>>>> subclass of
>>>>>>> "city" and "UK administrative division", may we?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sure, that's possible. Maybe this is even necessary. I had suggested
>>>>>> to link to "city status in the UK" -- but there is no item "town status
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the UK" so one would need to have helper items there as well. If we need
>>>>>> new items in either case, the class-based modelling seems nicer since it
>>>>>> fits into the existing class hierarchy as you suggest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Markus
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> L.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Il 10/giu/2014 10:21 "Markus Krötzsch" <
>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> ha scritto:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 07/06/14 00:40, Joe Filceolaire wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well they can ask.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As there is no real definition of what is a city and what the
>>>>>>> limits of
>>>>>>> each city are I'm not sure they will get a useful answer. The
>>>>>>> population
>>>>>>> of the "City of London" (Q23311), for instance, is only
>>>>>>> 7,375!
>>>>>>> Should we
>>>>>>> change it from 'instance of:city' to 'instance of:village'?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Side remark: in the UK, "city" and "town" are special legal
>>>>>>> statuses
>>>>>>> of settlements. This terminology is what "City of London" refers
>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>> There is a clear and crisp definition for what this means, but
>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>> not what we mean by our class "city" in Wikidata. In particular,
>>>>>>> this has no direct relationship to size: the largest UK "towns"
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> over 100k inhabitants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The class "city" is used for "relatively large and permanent
>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>> settlement[s]" [1], which does not say much (because the
>>>>>>> vagueness
>>>>>>> of "relatively"). Maybe we should even wonder if "city" is a good
>>>>>>> class to use in Wikidata. Saying that something has been awarded
>>>>>>> city status in the UK (Q1867820) has a clear meaning. Saying that
>>>>>>> something is a "human settlement" is also rather clear. But
>>>>>>> drawing
>>>>>>> the line between "village", "city" and "town" is quite tricky,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> will probably never be done uniformly across the data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Conclusion: if you are looking for, say, human settlements with
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> than 100k inhabitants, then you should be searching for just that
>>>>>>> (which I think is basically what you also are saying below :-).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Markus
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/__City
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even a basic query like 'people born in the Czech republic'
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> problems. Should it include people born in Czechoslovakia or
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Austro-Hungarian provinces of Bohemia and Moravia? To exclude
>>>>>>> these the
>>>>>>> query needs to check not just if the 'place of birth' of an
>>>>>>> item
>>>>>>> is 'in
>>>>>>> the administrative entity:Czech Republic' today but whether
>>>>>>> that was
>>>>>>> true on the 'date of birth' of each of those people.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This isn't to say that such queries are not useful. Just to
>>>>>>> point out
>>>>>>> that real world data is tricky. The cool thing is that we are
>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>> have the data in Wikidata to make it theoretically feasible
>>>>>>> to drill
>>>>>>> down and get answers to these tricky questions. Once the
>>>>>>> data is
>>>>>>> there,
>>>>>>> open licensed for anyone to use, then it is just a matter of
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> letting
>>>>>>> loose a thousand PhDs to devise clever ways to query it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If we build it they will come!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least that is my understanding.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 9:21 PM, Jeroen De Dauw
>>>>>>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>__>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey Yury,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are indeed planning to use the Ask query language for
>>>>>>> Wikidata.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People will be able to define queries on dedicated query
>>>>>>> pages that
>>>>>>> contain a query entity. These query entities will
>>>>>>> represent
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> such as "The cities with highest population in Europe".
>>>>>>> People will
>>>>>>> then be able to access the result for those queries via
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> web API
>>>>>>> and be able to embed different views on them into wiki
>>>>>>> pages. These
>>>>>>> views will be much like SMW result formats, and we might
>>>>>>> indeed be
>>>>>>> able to share code between the two projects for that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This functionality is still some way off though. We
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> need to do
>>>>>>> a lot of work, such as creating a nice visual query
>>>>>>> builder. To
>>>>>>> already get something out to the users, we plan to
>>>>>>> enable more
>>>>>>> simple queries via the web API in the near future.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Jeroen De Dauw - http://www.bn2vs.com
>>>>>>> Software craftsmanship advocate
>>>>>>> Evil software architect at Wikimedia Germany
>>>>>>> ~=[,,_,,]:3
>>>>>>>
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