In many ways it was Minhaaj who started me questioning. His confrontational postings are all too easy to dismiss. Instead, I thought about what he was saying, and that thinking lead me to other issues, and that gave voice to these long held quiet concerns I've had all along.
Thanks Alex for the encouraging remarks. Its not really here nor there to "agree", but simply the opportunity for each of us to practice articulating what we mean, and through that get a clearer grasp on what it is we are thinking. I found it interesting to read your thoughts as to why you haven't started something from scratch. Your impression that the Wikieducator project was here for COL constituents is curious. Do you work in Wikiversity much? Nellie, I'm reflecting on the reality that not a lot of collaboration happens the way we seem to expect it to happen, and yet there is productivity. From my experience, the availability of an add free media wiki in which to develop web content for my inidividual purposes is a primary motivation to use Wikieducator (along with the many other free publishing services that are available). If my work is of use to others that is great, but more and more I am becoming comfortable with the fact that collaboration in terms of page edits is actually insignificant and unimportant to me here. Now days I wonder if I actually even want collaboration in the sense we are expecting - the page edit sense. That sort of collaboration is certainly enabled by the wiki, and is evident in things like Wikipedia - but we are not building an encylcopedia are we. What we are doing is much more open ended, much more complex with everypage designed for a specific context, basically impossible for random uncoordinated collaborative edits like there is in Wikipedia. So, I'm wondering if we should adjust our expectations about collaboration? I'm proposing a consideration of a networked and distributed collaboration, much like what can be observed in blogging networks for example, and what we can see on the Wikispaces project. Could it be that a networked and distributed collaboration is more realistic and in fact waht is happening here? If we came to the project with this type of understanding about collaboration, would that change the rewards, motivations and expectations? Where does that leave the idea of one-ness that is promoted in Wikieducator? I would hope that it would lead to Wikieducator being very much in the background. On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 11:59 PM, Minhaaj ur Rehman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > If you haven't nosed out profiteering in WikiEducator you > probably have a lot to catch up on. Read, read, read :) > > On Oct 30, 5:31 pm, "Alex P. Real" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi Leigh, Minhaaj & All, > > > > Thanks for the clarification Leigh, thought you were referring to some > > NZ/Aus specificity I was not aware of! In terms of global edu I couldn't > > agree more, though I think it runs deeper than West/ non-West and it's > > rather about social control & associated political/capitalist interests. > > Sorry for referring to European frameworks; I'd have thought > lessons-learnt > > could be useful for copying US/UK models has ruined several national edu > > systems due to their cultural meaninglessness. But I'm rather fed up with > > apologizing for my passport. > > > > At the same time, providing access is important to many people in WE and > > several million worldwide; their approach can differ from yours and some > may > > prefer to plunge on whatever op. arises for there are not many. Like > > citizenship/residence permits, the goal is to get "papers". No judgment > > here, right? UN is certainly limited but it seems practical to learn, > take > > what's good & discard what's not. If WE is wiki and free, what's wrong in > > the coexistence of different perspectives? Sorry if pushy here but have > you > > considered your approach could be perceived as an imposition itself? > > Criticism is great, and I mean it, but what alternatives do you suggest? > > Ever thought TQF could ease many lives, e.g. qual recognition abroad, > which > > can be a real nightmare? > > > > Minhaaj, I guess there's more than your UAE trip, but why are Patricia & > > Randy "destructive profiteers"? Gee, rather strong, so I think we deserve > to > > know. Political struggles...lol > > > > Cheers, > > > > Alex > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: [email protected] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > En > > nombre de Minhaaj ur Rehman > > Enviado el: jueves, 30 de octubre de 2008 10:09 > > Para: WikiEducator > > Asunto: [WikiEducator] Re: !!RE: [WikiEducator] Re: Another Milestone > > > > Dear Leigh, i am amazed by your continous bringing up of controversial > > topics in wikieducator like me and i would like to applaud you for > > your tenacity. You can most certainly ignore people like Patricia and > > Randy who are ACTUALLY the destructive profiteers. Thanks for > > highlighting the issues that i am catching up on at the moment. Just > > came back from UAE and now have some time to catch up on politics :) > > > > Don't be discouraged by the vultures because an eagle flies far above > > them :) > > > > On Oct 30, 1:38 pm, "Leigh Blackall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > That was a fresh and accessible read thanks Peter. I especially liked > and > > > found interesting the 5 suggested areas of development research. There > was > > a > > > sudden jump in the level of detail, but I hung in there. > > > > > BTW, have you heard of this thing called the Delphi > > > Technique<http://www.illinoisloop.org/delphi_battey.html> > > > ? > > > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 8:27 PM, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Holly Poop! > > > > > > This is a thread that is really getting to the nut of the issue. And > > > > an issue that has me thinking, well to be honest, I've always found > > > > myself an anarchist and my trust of western philosophies "imposed" on > > > > others has often got my goat. You know, what right do we have to > think > > > > we have it right... So many initiatives started in good faith gone > > > > awry. Look at development efforts over the last 40 years... Can we > > > > actually say they have done more good than disruption? We will never > > > > know cause they were (in general) imposed... enough ranting... For > > > > those so inclined, I believe we can do an incredible amount of > > > > development work from home; > > > >http://www.gg.rhul.ac.uk/ict4d/Research%20at%20home.pdf > > > > And I also believe that work done from your home community provides > an > > > > arms length where the "recipients" have greater choice in what they > > > > "consume". Working from home also lessens your environmental > impact... > > > > > > I honestly believe we need diversity. I do not believe in centralized > > > > control. We need a platform that encourages diversity, not > singularity > > > > negotiated. We do not need one place or one piece of OER to fill a > > > > common need. We need the ability to subclass, reuse, alter, and > create > > > > multiple versions of OER. Localized yet reference the source... This > > > > would provide diversity and celebrate similarities. I look forward to > > > > the day where we can have multiple versions of the same OER, > > > > localized. > > > > > > All this said, any work we do toward the goal of CC-BY-SA OER is good > > > > work... > > > > > > Sincerely. > > > > > > On Oct 29, 10:51 pm, "Chris Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Names stand for ideas, so there will be the one and the only page > > about > > > > > > "constructivism" and "math" and "multiplication" in any wiki. > > > > > > > This is wrong, in an encyclopedia or dictionary this may be true. > > > > > > > Warm regards > > > > > Chris Harvey > > > > > chris.superuser.com.au > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Leigh Blackall > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > Great insight Maria! You are more than close I think. A thing > that > > has > > > > > > troubled me very much about the WIkieducator project is this > > one-ness. > > > > We > > > > > > all encourage each other to identify as Wikieductors (up until > this > > > > thread), > > > > > > and the Wikipedia article gave me clarity on this concern. Some > of > > us > > > > use > > > > > > words like, "Wikieducator family", and "Wikieducator community" > and > > > > this > > > > > > spreads a feeling of commitment to the collective and one-ness. > > Stephen > > > > > > Downes' talk about the differences between groups and networks is > > the > > > > best > > > > > > yet articulation of this problem. > > > > > > > > Your observtion about wikis is very close to my sense too Maria, > but > > I > > > > can > > > > > > think of one very (the most) successful open education resource > wiki > > > > that is > > > > > > not - Wikispaces. Wikispaces is first and foremost about the many > > > > different > > > > > > spaces on the platform. The Wikispace platform and business takes > a > > > > very > > > > > > back seat in it all, and in the early stages the owners went out > of > > > > their > > > > > > way to promote the projects on Wikispaces more than the Wikispace > > > > platform > > > > > > itself. Today, it is clear to see (in comparison to Wikieducator > and > > > > > > Wikipedia) that Wikispaces is all about the projects on the > > platform. > > > > > > > > To some extent I think Wikiversity is successfully doing this, > but > > > > there is > > > > > > plenty of evidence to centrally control the project, and have > users > > > > adopt > > > > > > group identity and a sense of one-ness. > > > > > > > > Where this gets most unsettling for me is when that sense of > > one-ness > > > > is > > > > > > then represented by a single person, or celebrity. In the case of > > > > Wikipedia, > > > > > > it is of course Jim Wales. > > > > > > > > Alex, regarding globalisation. The roots of this is in the very > > > > inception > > > > > > of the Commonwealth. Today it is through the free marketeering > speer > > > > headed > > > > > > by the USA, but echoed in the "West". Some wonder just how much > > bodies > > > > like > > > > > > the UN and perhaps COL, inadvertently represent that globalised > > view. > > > > > > > > This might be seen as a new form of colonisation, a concept that > the > > > > > > Commonwealth again knows all about. The new form of colonisation > is > > no > > > > > > different. Its culltural, its educational, its delivered through > > media > > > > and > > > > > > peak bodies, and relies on a sense of one-ness > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Maria Droujkova > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > >> Some entities involved in this conversation are new to me. From > > this > > > > > >> extreme newbie perspective, this conversation seems to be about > > > > "voting for > > > > > >> the best, the most logical, the most streamlined" vs. having > many > > > > different > > > > > >> sorts, kinds and flavors of... curricula, connections, models, > > > > theories. Am > > > > > >> I close? > > > > > > > >> Ever since wiki was invented, I've been wondering about this > > question, > > > > > >> though, even if it only relates to this conversation through a > > > > tangent. So I > > > > > >> am going to formulate it again. Wiki uses a "single idea, single > > > > space" > > > > > >> metaphor, hardcoded by allowing one single page by each name. > Names > > > > stand > > > > > >> for ideas, so there will be the one and the only page about > > > > "constructivism" > > > > > >> and "math" and "multiplication" in any wiki. This calls up all > > > > territorial > > > > > >> mechanisms of controlling this seemingly limited "land" - and do > > these > > > > > >> necessarily lead to wars? As Leigh said resignedly, in this > thread, > > > > "Off to > > > > > >> start an edit war in Wikipedia." > > > > > > > >> In general, human groups need a healthy balance between > convergence > > > > and > > > > > >> divergence of ideas. It looks like wikis tend to promote > > convergence > > > > (either > > > > > >> synergy-style, or survival-of-the-fittest style) rather than > > > > collections of > > > > > >> multitudes of ideas. So, would wiki ed projects attract people > who > > > > work in > > > > > >> "the bestest single curriculum" direction? > > > > > > > >> -- > > > > > >> Cheers, > > > > > >> MariaD > > > > > > > >> I write, 'In the beginning was the Deed!' - Goethe, Faust > > > > > > > >> naturalmath.com: a sketch of a social math site > > > > > >> groups.google.com/group/naturalmath: a mailing list about math > > maker > > > > > >> activities > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Leigh Blackall > > > > > >+64(0)21736539 > > > > > > skype - leigh_blackall > > > > > > SL - Leroy Goalpost > > > > > >http://learnonline.wordpress.com > > > > > >http://www.wikieducator.org/User:Leighblackall > > > > > -- > > > -- > > > Leigh Blackall > > > +64(0)21736539 > > > skype - leigh_blackall > > > SL - Leroy > > > > Goalposthttp://learnonline.wordpress.comhttp:// > www.wikieducator.org/User:Lei > > ghblackall- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > -- -- Leigh Blackall +64(0)21736539 skype - leigh_blackall SL - Leroy Goalpost http://learnonline.wordpress.com http://www.wikieducator.org/User:Leighblackall --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WikiEducator" group. 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