On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 02:08, Alex P. Real <[email protected]> wrote: > I agree with Nellie that fear to listen may indeed be harmful, same as not > realizing who our audience/readers, etc may be & how our own backgrounds > model perceptions. But silence (understood as refusal to speak) can be > equally pernicious for then unidirectional monologues replace any > substantial dialogue despite individual impressions. No offence meant, but > can’t but try a reading of the discussion: > > 1. Phil posts one of his great rants (top marks) > > 2. TALOnian Steven (“Sparks”) is well-known for his thought-provoking > posts , leading to enriching discussion whether one agrees or not with his > viewpoints J. If I recall correctly he’s rather environmental-conscious. > > 3. If I was living in the US amidst Creationism odds are I’d have a > similar initial reaction to Edward’s; but I’m not, same as I think all the > other people involved with this discussion (?).
I live in the world, not just in the US. I spent more than a year each in Korea, Japan, and the North of England (at the time when London was somewhat occupied by Enoch Powell and IRA bombings). There is AIDS denial all over Africa; Holocaust denial all over Europe, including the UK; World War II denial in Japan; official Armenia denial in Turkey; and so on. We have more of it than many in the US, but it is your problem too. > 4. Thanks Steven (Foerster) for voicing what many WE were likely to be > thinking. Let's hear it then from the rest of you. What are your issues with Global Warming science vs. the carbon fuel industry and their scientific and political shills and common or garden variety dupes? > 5. Wayne may have appeared as politically correct for > community-building and peace-keeping reasons, was there any other way out? > Does critical thinking involve being “incorrect” 24/7? Yes, there is. It is possible to discuss both science and politics on the basis of facts rather than what we wish to be true. "Everybody is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."--Daniel Patrick Moynihan Critical thinking includes not being a respecter of persons, as Paul put it in Rom. 2:11. This means that all are welcome, regardless of opinion, but nobody gets to hijack the conversation using the techniques of McCarthyism, as Deniers routinely try to do. > 6. Then Edward has turned it into a personal thing (or so it > appears). I can’t help wondering why, this thread seemed rather promising in > terms of intercultural awareness. I am attacking pseudoscience. I have forcefully stated my claims that Steven and Wayne are in error. I am not attacking them as people. I do not understand your usage of the phrase "intercultural awareness" unless it refers to excessive political correctness. I will match my intercultural _experience_ with anybody here, including my experiences of Black and White cultures in Newark, New Jersey and Nashville, Tennessee during the Civil Rights period, and my experiences of scientific and pseudoscientific cultures, and education and anti-education cultures. I go out of my way to talk to the deniers in order to understand them better. I do not think of them as obstacles to be swept away and otherwise ignored. > 7. I’m not going to discuss pro/con Climate Change discourses for I’m > no expert It is not necessary to be an expert to discuss what the experts have found. The fundamental question is whether you can tell the difference between the scientific work and the opposition on the basis of the methods used. How do you understand the scientific method? How do you understand the McCarthyist method? > and when debates are rather heated & receive ample media coverage > I normally become skeptical and focus on the underlying political-economic > interests. Quite right. There are two primary sets of interests in Global Warming denial. One is the obvious financial interest of carbon fuel companies, who are financing the other. The second requires understanding US political history, specifically the Republican Southern Strategy of pandering to racists and to intolerant, racist, Southern White churches. The racists are fighting the American Civil War, or as they call it the War of Northern Aggression, for the third time. The second was the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. The Lost Cause is losing yet again, as its population base shrinks steadily. Projection of opinion poll results from decades past indicates that they will become minorities in every state by 2024, obviously with some margin of error. At that point they will be able to elect their own kind locally (city, county, House of Representatives), but not statewide (Governor, Senator) or nationally (President and Vice President). Much of the agenda of the South and the extended Bible and Book of Mormon belt is denial of Federal authority over civil rights and resistance to social programs. In the current overheated political atmosphere (haha) this includes accusing President Obama of tyranny and every possible political and religious sin, up to and including being the Antichrist or the Devil himself (Bill O'Reilly to Lou Dobbs). It also includes opposing every item in the "Liberal agenda". (BTW, Liberal in the US has nearly the opposite meaning from what it signifies elsewhere.) So they are against Keynesian economic rescue of the economy with the Stimulus Package; any meaningful form of National Health; any taxes that could possibly be spent on social programs for despised minorities, women, or immigrants; Gay rights of any kind, but especially Gay marriage; education in critical thinking, on "Darwinism", and on sex; and any form of Environmentalism. See http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Code_words, http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Lies_and_Lying_Liars Racists in the South and Plains states vote constantly against their own economic interests. (see What's the Matter with Kansas?) They insist on being better off and of higher status than the riff-raff at any cost, even if that means not being as prosperous as they could be. (see Thorstein Veblen, The Theory of the Leisure Class) And the world can go to Hell for all they care. It isn't as if it's going to be around long enough for the effects of Global Warming to be important. What is important is to convince all of the Jews to move to Israel so that Armageddon and the Rapture can begin. Here are some choice examples from the current frontrunner for the Republican Presidential nomination in 2012. Palin is also a Global Warming denier and suppressor of scientific research, with the slogan, "Drill, baby, drill!" # Sarah Palin's Alaskan Armageddon (Clips) 2 min 33 sec - Sep 7, 2008 - Rated 4.6 out of 5.0 Is this the kind of person we really want with her finger on the big red button? Notice how she nods in agreement with the pastor when he says Alaska ... www.youtube.com/watch?v=8twqZpUT2NQ - Related videos - # Sarah Palin's Church tied to Jesus Camp Armageddon Dogma - tazlmo ... Just think about an Armageddon ready army of Sarah Palin followers willing to subvert your will and force you into religious submission on pain of death, ... open.salon.com/.../sarah_palins_church_tied_to_jesus_camp_armageddon_dogma - Cached - Similar - # CNN finally reports on Sarah Palin's Armageddon church CNN finally reports on Sarah Palin's quote on Iraq war 'a task from God' and Armageddon church. Pretty far-right stuff. digg.com/.../CNN_finally_reports_on_Sarah_Palin_s_Armageddon_church - Cached - # t r u t h o u t | Sarah Palin: A Gidget for God's Truth ... which raises questions about what sort of Armageddon she has in mind. ... Sarah Palin is their gal, and if she is elected vice president, these warriors ... www.truthout.org/article/sarah-palin-a-gidget-gods-truth - Cached - Similar - # Sarah Palin, Israel and Armageddon | The Atlantic Wire A stray comment about Israel gets pundits wondering if Palin expects the Rapture sometime soon. atlanticwire.theatlantic.com/.../Sarah-Palin-Israel-and-Armageddon-1694 - Cached - # Sarah Palin, Israel and Armageddon | Iranian.com Nov 23, 2009 ... Sarah Palin, Israel and Armageddon. The Atlantic Wire / The Atlandic Wire. 23-Nov-2009. Sarah Palin remarked to Barbara Walters last week ... www.iranian.com/main/news/.../sarah-palin-israel-and-armageddon - Cached - # Theocratic Sect Prays for Real Armageddon | | AlterNet 53 posts - 5 authors - Last post: Sep 7, 2008 They see Armageddon as a foregone conclusion, ... be doubted for having the shrewdness of mind to pick Governor Palin as his running mate. ... www.alternet.org/.../theocratic_sect_prays_for_real_armageddon/?... - Cached - Similar - # Is Sarah Palin a Dominionist? (It's the Armageddon, stupid ... Sep 8, 2008 ... This video I saw on Huffington Post. The video itself is something of a mess, with a bunch of jump-cut clips from various video sources, ... mediagirl.org › Blogs › media girl's blog - Cached - Similar - # Sarah Palin's Alaskan Armageddon (Clips) - Democratic Underground I put this short video together from readily available video of Palin's church. I could have added more, but I think a short video is more effective and ... www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az...all... - Cached - # Sarah Palin, Israel and Armageddon - Sarah Palin Gossip Nov 20, 2009 ... Sarah Palin, Israel and Armageddon - Sarah Palin remarked to Barbara Walters last week that she believes "more and more Jewish people will ... celebrifi.com/.../Sarah-Palin-Israel-and-Armageddon-1101376.html - Cached - > Striking that so-called “ecological” fuels such as ethanol are > behind recent further deforestation in Peru & Brazil, as well as wheat > scarcity, price increases and food riots around the world. Corn/maize prices in the US, due to subsidies, to ethanol production, and to NAFTA, are killing people worldwide, and ironically driving illegal immigration from Mexico. > I really hope WE all learn something from this & move forward! Hear, hear. > Cheers, > > > > Alex P. Real > > > > > > De: NELLIE DEUTSCH [mailto:[email protected]] > Enviado el: domingo, 29 de noviembre de 2009 8:28 > Para: [email protected] > Asunto: Re: Denialism (was Re: [WikiEducator] Phil's Rants) > > > > Just wanted to add that Jerome Bruner takes Wayne's statement that > "Education is humanity and will always be contextually and culturally > bounded" a bit further when he claims that "human beings deliberately teach > each other in settings outside in which the knowledge being taught will be > used". The information that we learn and believe to be true may be offensive > to other cultures and nations. The knowledge that we acquired at home or > school is coming up in online in discussions such as here and in other > online arenas. I would like to imagine what it would be like if we were all > able to listen openly to words that may negate our pasts so that those who > speak against our traditions may listen to us in return. Sharing our > knowledge and histories openly may be the first step to peaceful > coexistence. Stopping people from using loaded words as "denial" may not be > the way. I don't know, but I feel that fearing to listen may do more damage > than good. > Warm wishes, > Nellie Deutsch > Sharing is Caring! > Doctoral Student > Educational Leadership > Curriculum and Instruction > Integrating Technology for Active Life-long Learning (IT4ALL) > http://www.integrating-technology.com/pd > Get ready for CO10 at WiZiQ: http://connecting-online.ning.com/ > Free online workshops using WiZiQ: http://www.wikieducator.org/Workshops > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Wayne Mackintosh > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Steve, > > Well said and excellent post! > > We have the age of enlightenment to thank for the marvels of nuclear fission > and the atom bomb :-(. Sadly, in a post enlightenment age we are still > struggling between the age old tensions between "science" and "humanity". > What have we learned? > > WikiEducator is a project which spans multiple cultures and perspectives of > beliefs. We are not an encyclopaedia striving for an "objective" view of an > article. I trust that our community will not succumb to the traps of value > judgements. I for one don't have the knowledge or experience to exercise > these kinds of judgements but have observed that these are informed by > contexts -- very often contexts that the "opposing" side will have > difficulty to grasp and understand real meaning :-(. However, by being open > -- I have the opportunity to learn how different perspectives can manifest > themselves in educational contexts -- becoming a richer person for the > experience. > > I would like to see WikiEducator resources evolve and develop from a > foundation of respect for humanity and an openness to listen and learn. A > community that respects freedom of speech. Education is humanity and will > always be contextually and culturally bounded --- hence the "objective > truth" is of itself an elusive construct. > > Cheers > Wayne > > > > > 2009/11/29 Steve Foerster <[email protected]> > > > > The use of the word "denialism" to describe climate change skeptics is > the most obnoxious tactic in political discourse today, and I would > like to think that in a community like ours it would be entirely > unwelcome. In the highly charged environment we have when it comes to > this issue, where there is so much noise and the truth is so often > hidden by melodramatic rhetoric on both sides, it is not only fools > and liars who are skeptical of global warming, it is entirely possible > to hold that position in good faith. > > Edward, if you want to point out how the science behind this works, > and explain why those who are skeptical (1) that climate change is > occurring, and (2) that it's human caused, and (3) that it will be a > very bad thing for humanity, then that's great -- I for one admit that > I could use a better understanding of it. But to repeatedly use such > a term in a transparent attempt to morally equate climate change > skeptics with holocaust deniers is hateful and divisive. Please stop > it. > > Sincerely, > > -=Steve=- > > -- > Stephen H. Foerster > http://wikieducator.org/steve > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > > -- > Wayne Mackintosh, Ph.D. > Director, > International Centre for Open Education, > Otago Polytechnic, New Zealand. > Board of Directors, OER Foundation. > Founder and Community Council Member, Wikieducator, www.wikieducator.org > Mobile +64 21 2436 380 > User Page: http://wikieducator.org/User:Mackiwg > Skype: WGMNZ1 > Twitter: OERFoundation, Mackiwg > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "WikiEducator" group. > To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org > To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://www.earthtreasury.org/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "WikiEducator" group. To visit wikieducator: http://www.wikieducator.org To visit the discussion forum: http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]
