Well, it doesn't matter to me if it is re-invention or not. To me the important thing is to put such an instance in action. And I know for a fact that it doesn't function today since I discussed this question with numerous people in the Wiki-org (like the stewards, the ombudsman etc.)
That you are independent doesn't mean that you are not accustomed to how the Wikis work, I would guess that it actually is a prerequisite that you are. It just means that you take a step aside and are no longer actively involved in any Wiki and that you understand your position as an independent arbitrator. This process is handled without difficulties by other organizations. I am involved in work to counteract mobbing on the Internet in general and there are the Wikis today absolutely a part of the problem. Regards, Lars Gardenius ________________________________ Von: Fred Bauder <[email protected]> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> Gesendet: 19:14 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself That is just a re-invention of the Arbitration Committee. People from an external source nearly always have a fatal flaw; they don't understand how Wikipedia works. More informed people could man the arbitration committee, but that is a matter of documenting what the existing committee does and its effect and educating administrators, potential candidates and the existing committee members on the practical effect of their decisions. Fred > Well that is pretty easy: that Wiki-org will follow the example put up by > many countries, companies and schools. > > Create an independent instance (i.e. in this case independent of the > Wikis) that you can turn to when you are offended, insulted, mobbed, > harassed or in any way mistreated by people in the Wikis. > > Since so many seems to misunderstand this question, it is not meant to > handle questions about content or policies in the separate Wikis, but > only about the normal human behaviour that we have agreed on shall be > present in a society (today not including the Wikis). > > It is also important that this independent instance shall be responsible > for that the behaviour in the Wikis are within the boundaries of the > outside society, and therefore also has the right to intervene in a Wiki, > when members of that Wiki cross that boundary. > > Today there is an increasing problem with mobbing on the Internet. I > don't want the Wikis to be an enclave where this is still allowed. > > Regards, > Lars Gardenius > > > > > ________________________________ > Von: Fred Bauder <[email protected]> > An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> > Gesendet: 16:04 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 > Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself > > > Lars, > > Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes? > > Fred > >> I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. I >> think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this >> thread. >> >> To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the >> Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. I >> have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman, >> both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they >> themselves >> object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki. >> >> That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to >> which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an >> structural >> error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big >> organization. >> >> I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled. >> They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same >> people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil. >> >> So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this type >> of problems. >> >> Regards, >> Lars Gardenius >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> Von: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> An: Lars Gardenius <[email protected]> >> CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]>; >> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >> itself >> >> >> >> I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia (I >> have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would >> welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the >> result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more >> interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.) >> >> >> Steve ZhangSent from my iPad >> >> On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >> Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't >> work. >> Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow. >>> >>>Regards, >>>Lars Gardenius >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> Von: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>>An: Lars Gardenius <[email protected]>; Wikimedia Mailing List >>> <[email protected]> >>>CC: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>; Wikimedia >>> Mailing >>> List <[email protected]> >>>Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >>>Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >>> itself >>> >>> >>>I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not >>> work >>> now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about >>> everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things >>> harder) >>> >>>Steve Zhang >>>Sent from my iPad >>> >>>On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way. >>>> >>>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in >>>> a >>>> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't >>>> work >>>> now. >>>> >>>> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out >>>> persons that they don't like is very naive. >>>> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the >> Wikis are no exception. >>>> >>>> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other >>>> Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide >>>> behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users >>>> from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui >>>> Correia's email) >>>> >>>> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks >>>> alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal >>>> conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must >>>> be >>>> put in place. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Lars Gardenius >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> Von: Fred Bauder <[email protected]> >>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >>>> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013 >>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >>>> itself >>>> >>>> >>>> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process. >>>> See >>>> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who >>>> bump >>>> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have >>>> learned >>>> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content. >>>> >>>> Fred >>>> >>>>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the >>>>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading >>>>> position. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Lars Gardenius >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> Von: Rui Correia <[email protected]> >>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <[email protected]> >>>>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013 >>>>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from >>>>> itself >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Greetings to All >>>>> >>>>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not >>>>> compared >>>>> to >>>>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a >>>>> long >>>>> list >>>>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side. >>>>> >>>>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave >>>>> the >>>>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore >>>>> having >>>>> to >>>>> >> fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics. >>>>> >>>>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis >>>>> is >>>>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a >>>>> higher >>>>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of >>>>> people >>>>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the >>>>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the >>>>> 'outsider' >>>>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets >>>>> 'good >>>>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to >>>>> temper >>>>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is >>>>> round >>>>> at >>>>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is >>>>> making >>>>> the >>>>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a >> cabal. >>>>> >>>>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email. >>>>> >>>>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that >>>>> one >>>>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big >>>>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and >>>>> everbody >>>>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we >>>>> know >>>>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear >>>>> you!". >>>>> >>>>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly >>>>> - >>>>> was >>>>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are >>>>> legions >>>>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we >>>>> know >>>>> that >>>>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here, >>>>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles >>>>> >>>>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word >>>>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back >>>>> to >>>>> XP. >>>>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP >>>>> is >>>>> an >>>>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade. >>>>> >>>>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of >>>>> offending >>>>> the >>>>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant - >>>>> not >>>>> the >>>>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but >>>>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was >>>>> immediately >>>>> closed, >> labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on >>>>> that >>>>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes. >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29 >>>>> >>>>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed >>>>> elsewhere. >>>>> >>>>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top, >>>>> I >>>>> don't >>>>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in >>>>> eight >>>>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a >>>>> number >>>>> of >>>>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am >> happy to see >>>>> that >>>>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy >>>>> Wales >>>>> in >>>>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa. >>>>> >>>>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with >>>>> a >>>>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy. >>>>> >>>>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing >>>>> >>>>> Rui Correia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> _________________________ >>>>> Rui Correia >>>>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant >>>>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant >>>>> >>>>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186 >>>>> Número de Telemóvel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186 >>>>> _______________ >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> Unsubscribe: >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> Unsubscribe: >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >>>> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> >>> >>> >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
