Hi Peter,

The complete quote goes: "There must be another way to work for the value
of "free knowledge for the people" but to destroy net neutrality and the
experience of an open web in the very beginning at the same time."

When it comes to schools and other educational organisations in developing
countries the project "Wikipedia on a USB-Stick" was a good idea to start
from I think. Something equally usuable for mobiles could be one direction
to think. But of course, as the Walled Wikipedia of WP0 this project isn't
really giving the full experience of an open and free wikipedia. So it
would be a pratical alternative for WP0 (without the dealing with the
access providers), but nothing more.

Apart from this existing project I described in a former discussion (and in
talks with e.g. Jan-Bart and others) that a more political initiative of a
"public open knowledge project" with delepment of a first framework could
be a midterm approach. In short: the public knowledge project would define
standard framework for content which has to be provided for free to
everybody for free use.
This could include different knowledge providing entities from public via
civil-societal to even free content of commercial providers. Every content
could be proved to fit the standards for open knowledge and  in different
countries different content providers would create the mix. The system
would be open and so it would be independent from the access providers.

It could be mandatory or non-mandatory for the access providers to offer
access to the public open knowledge project (which in essence would be a
list of registered websites you have full-functional access to), according
to what would be more appropiated for the actual market situation in the
country or area. The government could provide subsidies for the cost the
access providers have - it would be seen as cost for the cultural &
intellectual infrastructure of your country (like libraries, museums,
schools etc. today.) It would be a mixture between public service and
voluntary engagment of civil and commercial players framed by standards
which are discussed in an possibly multi-stakeholder forum regularly. Then
Wikipedia could be an important knot in a free public knowledge network
secured by laws, international cooperations and civil engagement.

This, of course, would first make the access providers cry out loud,
because of - as they would describe it - unbearable duties for single
telecoms. And surely it would need support by international community,
government and cooperation between the single access providers.
Also, in an absolutist way this would be a violation of net neutrality, but
it would be a violation that isn't driven by the intent to develop a market
with customers used to pay different prizes for different data types which
is the clear intent for which WP0 is misused in reality. Market isn't a
solution for everything. A open public knowledge project would establish an
area in the web which could be experienced as true publicness, as a truely
public place, created, operated and sustained by the triangle which makes
the public (state-people-business). It would be like a public web inside
the internet. Considering the commercialisation of the internet and the
access to it that could be an important counterbalance to the ongoing
development.

Well, this is just a quick thought and surely as ambitious as WP0 is in its
way, but its not always about only the ambition, but also about the path
you walk to reach the then version of what you thought is right in the
beginning. This project would be a real piece of work in strategic
multi-partnership and not some cheap play with some access providers
looking to enrichen their marketing bouquet with the beautiful Wikipedia
flower. It would truely mean to take all our values seriously and work on a
partnership that puts Wikipedia in the center of a network of free
knowledge that would deserve that name. It would mean to become an grown-up
organisation taking strategic professional care of the field it works and
leads in - free knowledge.

Apart from that quick idea I'm also not the only one this question should
be asked. And apart from all possible answers, WP0 still stays the wrong
path. Some things are already wrong even before you learn that their
numbers also don't work out. In the end WP0 is a tiny example about the
ethos of WMF. Do you believe market and entrepreneurship is always good for
your common target (like e.g. free knowledge) or does even
something anarchistic like the web has some structural framework - even
unrecognized in its beginnings - that make sure that openess is possible?
net neutrality isn't a religion (like some people here havong no godd
arguments on their own try to phrase), but net neutrality could be an
important piece of the framework which is needed to balance a network
structure which is "ruled" by the governments, by the companies and -
happily - by the people in the same time.

So far some quick thoughts,

Jens


2015-04-01 23:47 GMT+02:00 Peter Southwood <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>:

> OK, you say 'There must be another way to work for the value of "free
> knowledge for the people"', so what is it?
> Peter
> (also in the global south)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jens Best
> Sent: 31 March 2015 09:27 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Introducing Kourosh Karimkhany, Vice President
> of Strategic Partnerships
>
> Dear Gerard,
>
> your arguments are just emotional rhetorics. Saying that "white,
> privileged and well educated" people aren't allowed to critize ways how
> first-world-led telecoms (like Orange, Telenor) are spreading a wrong,
> non-open "internet" in developing countries is just plain emotional
> rhetoric far away from any fact.
>
> Wikipedia Zero is NOT bringing the free knowledge of the world to the
> people, it's bringing Wikipedia to the people, not more, not less. Also,
> zero-rating is helping to establish user habits which are used to have
> different prices for different kinds of data - That is the clearest
> violation of net neutrality and therefore of an open and free web.
>
> Ignoring this is just helping the (first-world-led) Telecoms to establish
> NOT a free internet which also helped to create something like Wikipedia,
> but a walled garden system where you pay for different data of even (as it
> is the case e.g. in some parts of India) different websites. I think that
> it is ignorant to profit only short-term by bringing a Walled Wikipedia to
> the people and having Wikipedia in this exclusive deal in comparison to
> establish a sustainable way to bring free knowledge (which is far more than
> Wikipedia) to the people.
>
> There must be another way to work for the value of "free knowledge for the
> people" but to destroy net neutrality and the experience of an open web in
> the very beginning at the same time. It is the duty of WMF to take care
> also of the framework which enabled Wikipedia in the start. Ignoring this
> and being proud of having a comfortable deal with some Telecoms is plain
> wrong and irresponsible - especially for a free and open digital
> development of the Global South.
>
> best regards
>
> Jens Best
>
> 2015-03-31 9:05 GMT+02:00 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Hoi,
> > With Wikipedia Zero people have access to knowledge that they would
> > not have otherwise. It is well established that having information
> > readily available is an important indicator for further development.
> > Not having Wikipedia available is absolutely a worse situation than
> having it.
> >
> > Your argument is imho a bleeding heart stance. Would it not be better
> if..
> > My answer is sure HOWEVER given that the objective of Wikipedia is to
> > share in the sum of all knowledge, your argument is decidedly
> > secondary. Sources may be important but they are secondary to having
> > the information available in the first place. As long as we have
> > sources in full blown Wikipedia, as long as it is WMF that provides
> > the Wikipedia Zero content... what is your point. Yes, ideally we want
> > people to ensure that people know about sources. When sources are just
> > statements of fact and they are in turn not accessible because of cost.
> What is your point in practical terms?
> >
> > Wikipedia Zero is very much a fulfillment of our aspirations. Do not
> > forget who you are: white, privileged and well educated. What you
> > propose is taking away something that you take for granted. Not nice.
> > Thanks,
> >       GerardM
> >
> > On 30 March 2015 at 20:37, Andreas Kolbe <jayen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The recent Newsweek story on the Wifione / IIPM admin corruption
> > > case[1] has clear implications for Wikipedia Zero.
> > >
> > > Wikipedia Zero creates hundreds of millions of passive Wikipedia
> > > users
> > who:
> > >
> > > - Cannot see the sources of a Wikipedia article (I believe SMS users
> > cannot
> > > even see which statements *are* sourced and to what)
> > > - Cannot view alternative sources
> > > - Cannot meaningfully edit Wikipedia (lacking access to new sources)
> > >
> > > At the same time, Wikipedia Zero creates a monopoly position for
> > Wikipedia
> > > that makes the site an even greater target for manipulation by local
> > > elites, who *do* enjoy full read/write access to Wikipedia. Such
> > monopolies
> > > are fundamentally incompatible with the values underlying the idea
> > > of a free and open web. Monopolies ultimately result in *control*
> > > rather than
> > > *freedom* of information.
> > >
> > > The Wifione case illustrates that even in the English Wikipedia
> > > attempts
> > at
> > > manipulation, focused on topics that the average Wikipedia
> > > contributor
> > has
> > > little interest in or knowledge about, can be successful and remain
> > > undetected for years. Small, regional-language Wikipedias are far
> > > more unstable still, as the example of the Croatian Wikipedia
> > > demonstrated all too clearly.
> > >
> > > Wikipedia is far too vulnerable to become the gatekeeper for
> > > information
> > in
> > > developing countries -- if such a gatekeeper were even desirable
> > > (which
> > it
> > > is not).
> > >
> > > To give another example, I see that Wikipedia Zero is available in
> > > Kazakhstan.
> > >
> > > Jimmy Wales recently asserted on Reddit that the Kazakh government
> > > "does not control the Kazahk *[sic]* Wikipedia".[2]
> > >
> > > The Kazakh government, however, seems to disagree with Jimmy
> > > Wales.[3]
> > >
> > > The Kazakh Prime Minister's official website has stated since 2011
> > > that
> > the
> > > Kazakh Wikipedia project "is implemented under the auspices of the
> > > Government of Kazakhstan and with the support of Prime Minister
> > > Karim Massimov", quoting the head of WikiBilim and 2011 Wikipedian
> > > of the Year, who today holds the office of a Deputy Governor in the
> > > Kazakh
> > government[4]
> > > and is the Founding Director of a Brussels-based think tank, the
> > "Eurasian
> > > Council on Foreign Affairs", which is widely considered a PR front
> > > of the Kazakh government.[5][6][7]
> > >
> > > Is aiding the market dominance and penetration of such a source
> > > through Wikipedia Zero in line with movement values? Is the type of
> > > collaboration described on Wikimedia's Outreach page for
> > > Kazakhstan?[8] I don't think
> > so.
> > >
> > > I thought we were on the side of those fighting for freedom of
> > > speech,
> > not
> > > the side of those suppressing it.
> > >
> > > It's a concrete example of Wikipedia Zero aiding an oppressive
> > > government in the control of information -- not at some point in the
> > > future, but today.
> > >
> > > For a thoughtful examination of the issues surrounding Wikipedia
> > > Zero,
> > I'd
> > > ask everyone to take 5 minutes of their time to listen to the
> > presentation
> > > Thomas Lohninger gave at the Chaos Communication Congress in
> > > December
> > 2014,
> > > "Net Neutrality: Days of Future Past?"[9] Time code 37:00 onward.
> > >
> > > I would be glad to see the Wikimedia Foundation rejoin the ranks of
> > > those fighting for freedom of speech, and a free and open web for all.
> > >
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.newsweek.com/2015/04/03/manipulating-wikipedia-promote-bogu
> > s-business-school-316133.html
> > > [2] https://archive.today/nyt1z – for the entire discussion three,
> > > see
> > > https://archive.today/V1uG4
> > > [3] https://archive.today/7kSLO
> > > [4] http://www.inform.kz/eng/article/2730173
> > > [5]
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.silkroadreporters.com/2015/02/20/jack-straw-slammed-taking-
> > job-kazakhstan/
> > > [6]
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/jack-straw-criticised
> > -for-accepting-parttime-job-paid-for-by-kazakhstan-10057426.html
> > > [7] http://www.equaltimes.org/pr-firms-at-the-service-of-human
> > > [8]
> > > https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/Countries/Kazakhstan
> > > https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Education/Countries/Kazakhs
> > > tan
> > > [9]
> > >
> > >
> > http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6170_-_en_-_saal_g_-_2
> > 01412282145_-_net_neutrality_days_of_future_past_-_rejo_zenger_-_thoma
> > s_lohninger.html
> > >
> > > On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 12:15 AM, Jens Best <best.j...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Well,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > first of all, welcome Kourosh.
> > > >
> > > > I'm looking forward to see how the reality of this exciting job
> > > description
> > > > gonna look like. For me this also sounds like a clear move to a
> > > > more politically positioned understanding of this aspect of the
> > > > growing importance of the Wikimedia-Movment globally. "Advancement
> Department"
> > > > sounds pretty neutral, but certainly it isn't at all.
> > > >
> > > > When it comes to "collaboration with like-minded organizations"
> > decisions
> > > > surely are also carried by a stronger public postioning of the
> > > > values
> > of
> > > > the movement. Some of the decisions in the past, especially when
> > > > it
> > comes
> > > > to collaborations with commercial internet players maybe need to
> > > > be
> > > openly
> > > > and transparently re-evaluated.
> > > >
> > > > If Kourosh is settled in I would like to see a global, transparent
> > > > and
> > > open
> > > > discussion about our program "Wikipedia Zero" which is under
> > > > global
> > > critic
> > > > by OpenWeb-NGOs and other worried members of the civil society in
> > > > the
> > US,
> > > > in the "Global South" and in Europe.
> > > >
> > > > Wikipedia Zero which for me is a straight marketing element of
> > > > some
> > > clever
> > > > telecoms to sell their mobile products in developing markets and
> > > therefore
> > > > infusing an user-experience of data-specific payment habits, needs
> > > > to
> > be
> > > > re-evaluated with a professional look that includes awareness of
> > > > what implications strategic partnerships can have on our core values.
> > > >
> > > > The well-meant intentions which carried the Wikipedia Zero
> > > > programme
> > > inside
> > > > WMF to the point where it is now maybe were a little starry-eyed.
> > > > Let's
> > > not
> > > > forget that a zero-rated Wikipedia which can't connect to the
> > > > linked knowledge of the world is just a *Walled Wikipedia *and
> > > > therefore a questionable  contribution to our core belief of
> > > > giving free knowledge
> > to
> > > > the people - by the people.
> > > >
> > > > The intensity with which the global fight about net neutrality is
> > > > lead because of the commercial interests of the telecoms surely
> > > > doesn't stop
> > > at
> > > > the markets of the Global South - therefore Wikimedia movement has
> > > > to
> > > make
> > > > perfectly clear which line is walked on this central matter of a
> > > > free
> > and
> > > > open internet.
> > > >
> > > > You see, Kourosh, the challenges are big and I'm looking forward
> > > > to
> > have
> > > an
> > > > experienced person overlooking the future developments in this field.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > best regards and a good start
> > > >
> > > > Jens Best
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2015-03-27 21:13 GMT+01:00 Lila Tretikov <l...@wikimedia.org>:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear Wikimedians,
> > > > >
> > > > > In order to encourage the expansion of knowledge, we’ve been
> > > considering
> > > > > new ways to support and develop the work you do. Collaboration
> > > > > is an essential part of the Wikimedia movement, and today, I’m
> > > > > excited to
> > let
> > > > you
> > > > > know about a new addition at the Wikimedia Foundation that will
> > support
> > > > our
> > > > > collaboration with like-minded organizations.
> > > > >
> > > > > For some time now, we’ve planned to hire a Vice President of
> > Strategic
> > > > > Partnerships. Today, I am pleased to announce that Kourosh
> > > > > Karimkhany
> > > > will
> > > > > step into this role on March 30, 2015.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kourosh will be responsible for crafting a strategy to grow
> > > > > long-term
> > > > value
> > > > > for Wikimedia projects through building meaningful partnerships,
> > > > projects,
> > > > > and relationships on behalf of the Wikimedia Foundation. He will
> > become
> > > > > part of the C-level team and will report to Lisa Gruwell.
> > > > > Kourosh
> > will
> > > > also
> > > > > oversee Wikipedia Zero, which will transition to the
> > > > > partnerships
> > team.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Wikimedia community has many fruitful and creative
> > > > > partnerships
> > > that
> > > > > help support knowledge creation and sharing around the world.
> > > > > The partnerships Kourosh will support will will help us better
> > > > > support
> > > these
> > > > > partnerships and your work, as well as grow strategic
> > > > > initiatives we
> > > take
> > > > > on at the WMF.
> > > > >
> > > > > Kourosh was born in Iran and moved to the U.S. as a child with
> > > > > his
> > > > family.
> > > > > Today, he is an experienced digital media professional with a
> > > > > passion
> > > for
> > > > > sharing information with the world. He started his career as a
> > > technology
> > > > > journalist covering Silicon Valley for Bloomberg, Reuters and
> Wired.
> > He
> > > > > switched to the business side of media when he joined Yahoo as
> > > > > senior producer of Yahoo News. Later, he led corporate
> > > > > development at Conde
> > > Nast
> > > > > where he spearheaded the acquisition of Wired.com, Ars Technica
> > > > > and
> > > > Reddit.
> > > > > He also cofounded Food Republic in 2009, which was acquired in
> 2013.
> > > He's
> > > > > an active angel investor and startup advisor.
> > > > >
> > > > > In light of the expanded scope of the Fundraising team and the
> > revamped
> > > > > partnerships team, we’re changing the team's name to better
> > > > > reflect
> > > their
> > > > > mission. The new name is the Advancement Department.  To learn
> > > > > more
> > > about
> > > > > the new role, visit the FAQ here:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WMF_Partnerships_FAQ
> > > > >
> > > > > Please join me in welcoming Kourosh as the newest member of the
> > > > > WMF leadership team. We have many exciting projects in 2015 and
> > > > > I’m
> > looking
> > > > > forward to all the great things we will accomplish as we work
> > together
> > > to
> > > > > support our mission.
> > > > >
> > > > > ~~~~Lila
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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