Did you mean they did /not/ tell you? 2015-08-31 0:16 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.w...@gmail.com>:
> The most annoying part now is that the fundraising team did tell me thta, > while I ma in change of the banners. > > How is it possible that they do worse and worse each time? > > Romaine > > 2015-08-30 22:20 GMT+02:00 Andrea Zanni <zanni.andre...@gmail.com>: > > > Hello everybody. > > I'm happy to announce that the Wikimedia Foundation has decided not to > run > > the Fundraising banner in Italy during September. > > > > In the last week, the Fundraising Team and Wikimedia Italia's board > worked > > hard together to find a common solution. In these very last days, we > > continued a very honest and direct conversation. > > I just received the news, and I'm glad to share it with you all. > > > > I personally think that the Fundraising Team made a brave move (as they > > will not likely meet the fundraising goals), and would love to see it > > welcomed with the respect it deserves. > > > > Best regards > > > > Andrea > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Steinsplitter Wiki < > > steinsplitter-w...@live.com> wrote: > > > > > Thank you Romaine for setting up the RFC on meta [1]! > > > > > > So we can see what the community thinks about this. > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2015 19:04:41 +0200 > > > > From: romaine.w...@gmail.com > > > > To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org; > > > wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves > Monuments > > > in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > Having spoken with some people, I have come to the conclusion that it > > is > > > > time to ask the Wikimedia community what they think about this > > > situation. I > > > > have especially seen both parties, the Wiki Loves Monuments > organising > > > > teams who like to have a banner for Wiki Loves Monuments in > September, > > > and > > > > the WMF Fundraising team who likes to have a fundraising banner in > > > > September. Then the question remains: what has more value for the > > > Wikimedia > > > > movement? > > > > > > > > To find out what the Wikimedia community thinks about this > situation, I > > > > have set up this Request for Comment: > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Fundraising_banner_or_Wiki_Loves_Monuments_banner > > > > > > > > Romaine > > > > > > > > 2015-08-30 15:35 GMT+02:00 Romaine Wiki <romaine.w...@gmail.com>: > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > New update: > > > > > > > > > > The Italian team had some calls with the fundraising team and it > > > resulted > > > > > in: > > > > > * Wiki Loves Monuments gets the whole 4th week of September. So we > > will > > > > > have the WLM banner alone the first and the last week. > > > > > * WLM IT is discussing with the community a message in the Main > Page > > of > > > > > Wikipedia > > > > > * WMF will try to put a link to WLM in the banner > > > > > * WMF will put a link to WLM in the Thank You letter for donors. > > > > > * WMF is helping WLM Italy with a blogpost in the blog, and social > > > media > > > > > fire > > > > > > > > > > They made clear this won't happen again. > > > > > > > > > > To me, the only improvements is their promise it won't happen > again, > > > what > > > > > we certainly keep them having their promise in future, and that the > > > amount > > > > > of time the Wiki Loves Monuments banner is shown will be 50% of the > > > time. > > > > > > > > > > The rest of the outcomes is lousy and they sold us empty boxes. > Wiki > > > Loves > > > > > Monuments depends for about 99% on a CentralNotice banner. Most > > > visitors to > > > > > Wikipedia do not visit the main page of a wiki. I do not believe a > > > small > > > > > link to WLM in a large fundraising banner would help or is seen. I > do > > > not > > > > > believe that a link in the Thank You letter for donors would work. > A > > > > > blogpost will be written anyway, as Wiki Loves Monuments is the > > largest > > > > > project of the Wikimedia movement, but still it would not reach to > > the > > > core > > > > > people Wiki Loves Monuments is aiming at. And a social media fire, > I > > > have > > > > > no believe in it that WMF would have any control in such and the > core > > > > > infrastructure is not under control by WMF. > > > > > > > > > > And still no explanation why it is not possible to move the > > fundraising > > > > > banner to a month later... > > > > > > > > > > I can only conclude that we have been put off, in Dutch: > afgescheept > > > > > worden (literally: being shipped of). > > > > > > > > > > At such having a blocking banner is sad news. A competition is > large > > > > > ruined by it. > > > > > > > > > > What I consider the most demotivating is the play the fundraising > > team > > > of > > > > > WMF has played. I certainly do not consider it fair play. Too many > > > empty > > > > > promises, dividing the community to get less resistance, no fair > > > > > negotiations, usage of the inexperience of volunteers, and more. > > > > > > > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by > > > multiple > > > > > people, I still have the impression some people in WMF still do not > > > really > > > > > get it. > > > > > > > > > > I had the occasion in the past weeks that I spoke with people from > > WMF > > > who > > > > > are working for the foundation for some years, and I had to explain > > > what > > > > > Wiki Loves Monuments is. (And that was not the first time.) It is > the > > > > > largest project of the movement, recognised as largest photo > contest > > > in the > > > > > world, and some WMF people do not know or understand. I was so > > > friendly to > > > > > explain it of course, but it gave mixed feelings. > > > > > > > > > > And even after explaining the community perspective many times by > > > multiple > > > > > people, they do not really get it. > > > > > > > > > > Lessons to be learned: > > > > > * Do not assume that the fundraising team takes the best position > for > > > the > > > > > movement, they have a target to make. > > > > > * Do not assume the fundraising team plays a fair play. They have a > > > lot of > > > > > weight and use it. > > > > > * Do not assume that their first offer (in case of a blocking > banner) > > > is a > > > > > balanced, reasonable and well thought one. > > > > > * Do not expect them to know how much the impact is of something. > > > > > * Do expect them to offer empty shells/boxes/etc and are not > > impressed > > > by > > > > > those. > > > > > * Say always no if they ask if a blocking banner or two banners at > > the > > > > > same time is okay. It has a devastating effect on your results. Yes > > you > > > > > can, some chapters did and that was taken into account seriously. > > > > > * Always have the complete team involved in the communication, and > > even > > > > > think of asking advisers (from outside WMF) for support and > feedback > > > on the > > > > > proposals. Always have someone involved who has years of experience > > in > > > this > > > > > matter, otherwise you loose and the whole community looses. > > > > > > > > > > But I think the best lesson learned is: with every blocking banner, > > let > > > > > the community publicly decide what should be chosen. > > > > > > > > > > Romaine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2015-08-30 14:00 GMT+02:00 Steinsplitter Wiki < > > > steinsplitter-w...@live.com > > > > > >: > > > > > > > > > >> I 100% agree with rupert's thoughts. > > > > >> > > > > >> Wiki(p|m)edia was and is mad be volunteers, therefore volunteer > > first > > > > >> should apply. Volunteers are contributing the content for exactly > > zero > > > > >> dollars per hour. It is all because of free knowledge and other > > > stuff, but > > > > >> not about money. It looks like money is fore some people moor > > > important > > > > >> than free knowledge. It is frustrating... > > > > >> > > > > >> Regards, > > > > >> Steinsplitter > > > > >> > > > > >> > From: rupert.thur...@gmail.com > > > > >> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2015 21:35:46 +0200 > > > > >> > To: janb...@wikimedia.org; patricio.lore...@gmail.com; > > > > >> me.ly...@gmail.com; ubifri...@gmail.com; jmh...@gmail.com; > > > > >> dar...@alk.edu.pl; denny.vrande...@kit.edu; jwa...@wikia.com; > > > > >> s...@wikimedia.org > > > > >> > CC: wikilovesmonume...@lists.wikimedia.org; > > > > >> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wiki Loves Monuments] Wiki Loves > > > Monuments > > > > >> in Italy largely blocked by WMF fundraising > > > > >> > > > > > >> > dear board, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > allow me to directly ask you to stop these fundraising persons > to > > > spoil > > > > >> > wiki loves monuments because of less than intelligent KPIs. WMF > > > cannot > > > > >> and > > > > >> > should not behave like an elephant in the porcelain shop. there > > is a > > > > >> simple > > > > >> > technical solution to the problem below, to have a combined > banner > > > for > > > > >> WLM > > > > >> > and donation. it is impossible that more money at stake as is > > > covered by > > > > >> > the reserves, isn't it? i am really lacking words here ... the > > only > > > > >> ones i > > > > >> > could find would not be compliant with the friendly space > policy. > > > if we > > > > >> as > > > > >> > movement do not follow through the "volunteer first" rule than > it > > is > > > > >> better > > > > >> > to dissolve WMF, or split it in two parts, one holding the > rights > > > to the > > > > >> > web URLs, i.e. right to banner, the other one employing all the > > > people > > > > >> > doing some work. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > best, > > > > >> > rupert > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Andrea Zanni < > > > zanni.andre...@gmail.com > > > > >> > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Hello everyone. > > > > >> > > Sorry for the long mail but we wanted to explain the situation > > for > > > > >> > > Wikimedia Italia. > > > > >> > > The conversation is going on and it's better to clear some > > > important > > > > >> > > points. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > In the second week of August Wikimedia Italia has been > contacted > > > by > > > > >> > > Kalliope Tsouroupidou and later by Jessica Robell, who > explained > > > that > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > Wikimedia Foundation was planning to have a fundraising > campaign > > > in > > > > >> Italy > > > > >> > > in September. > > > > >> > > We have been surprised by that, since Wiki Loves Monuments is > > > > >> well-known to > > > > >> > > run in September, and it has been like that for years. > > > > >> > > Moreover, there has been a similar clash in 2014: we > discussed > > > for > > > > >> several > > > > >> > > days, and in the end we reached a compromise, and the FR > banners > > > went > > > > >> live > > > > >> > > just for the last days. > > > > >> > > It was not perfect, but we had WLM banners for almost all > > > September. > > > > >> > > This year the clash is on the whole month of September. Given > > the > > > > >> history, > > > > >> > > and the very fact that Wikimedia Italia has planned WLM and > > > written > > > > >> so in > > > > >> > > the FDC application, we feel that WMIT has not been negligible > > in > > > > >> matters > > > > >> > > of > > > > >> > > communication. > > > > >> > > We are not *happy* with the situation, > > > > >> > > the very existence of the clash, the fact that all this > appeared > > > in > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > middle of August, while we were all on holiday and just few > > weeks > > > > >> before > > > > >> > > the beginning of WLM. > > > > >> > > We just decided not to pick up a fight, as we believe in > > > constructive > > > > >> > > conversation and negotiation. > > > > >> > > The agreement we reached is very painful for WMIT and WLM: > it's > > > just > > > > >> better > > > > >> > > than not having the banners at all, or to have them for just a > > few > > > > >> days in > > > > >> > > the middle of September. > > > > >> > > Conversations with the FR team has been firm, but polite: this > > > does > > > > >> not > > > > >> > > mean that we are happy about what is happening. > > > > >> > > Moreover, we will have to discuss with FDC to renegotiate > > expected > > > > >> results > > > > >> > > for WLM in 2015. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Having the fundraising campaign in September in Italy has a > > clear > > > > >> negative > > > > >> > > impact on Wiki Loves Monuments, the largest project of > Wikimedia > > > > >> Italia. > > > > >> > > This will not only likely reduce the number of participants > and > > > > >> uploaded > > > > >> > > pictures, but will also put us in a difficult position in > front > > > of our > > > > >> > > sponsors and partners, including 200+ municipalities, 100+ > > > cultural > > > > >> > > institutions, and some major partners, like FIAF (the > Federation > > > of > > > > >> Italian > > > > >> > > photographers' associations), ICOM (the International Council > of > > > > >> Museums), > > > > >> > > the Toscana Foto Festival (a major photo festival), Touring > Club > > > > >> Italiano > > > > >> > > (the largest Italian touristic association), and others. WMIT > > > spends > > > > >> > > thousands of euros in WLM each year - not because we waste > > money, > > > but > > > > >> > > because we have higher stakes. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > This year, we will have in the Italian Jury international > > renowned > > > > >> > > photographers like (prabably: yet to be confirmed) Steve > > McCurry ( > > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_McCurry) and Franco > > Fontana ( > > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco_Fontana). > > > > >> > > This year, in June, we were received by several politicians > from > > > the > > > > >> > > Italian Parliament for an official meeting regarding the law > we > > > are > > > > >> > > fighting > > > > >> > > as WMIT. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Because of the specific challenges we face, WLM in Italy goes > > > beyond > > > > >> being > > > > >> > > a photographic competition and is also an opportunity to > create > > > > >> > > relationships and advocate for the freedom of taking pictures > of > > > > >> monuments. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Italy does not have "freedom of panorama". > > > > >> > > Worst, Italy does not have freedom of panorama for any kind of > > > > >> monuments, > > > > >> > > even if copyright has expired. > > > > >> > > We need to ask for permission to make pictures of monuments. > > For. > > > > >> Every. > > > > >> > > Monument. > > > > >> > > We have to create lists of monuments to be photographed. There > > is > > > no > > > > >> > > official list of monuments in Italy. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > There is *extensive* documentation here: > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Italian_cultural_heritage_on_the_Wikimedia_projects > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > This is very important to know to put in perspective WLM Italy > > > stats: > > > > >> > > http://stats.wikilovesmonuments.cl/italy. As an example, it > is > > > the > > > > >> reason > > > > >> > > why we have so many participants who contribute for few pics > > > each. In > > > > >> 2014 > > > > >> > > alone, we had 1038 uploaders, but we were only 6th in terms of > > > number > > > > >> of > > > > >> > > photos. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > The global fundraising is essential to our movement. > > > > >> > > It funds Wikipedia operations, software development, the > > Wikimedia > > > > >> > > Foundation, many chapters and affiliates, and, of course, also > > > Wiki > > > > >> Loves > > > > >> > > Monuments (even tough in Italy it is primarily funded from > other > > > > >> sources). > > > > >> > > The global fundraising is meant to support the Wikimedia > > movement: > > > > >> but, for > > > > >> > > this very reason, it is a pity to have it clashing to one of > the > > > very > > > > >> > > activities it is meant to support. > > > > >> > > Especially since we are not talking about a 2 hours editathon > > in a > > > > >> small > > > > >> > > library in the middle of nowhere, but about an international > > > > >> competition > > > > >> > > who ended up in the Guinnes World Records, bringing thousands > of > > > > >> pictures > > > > >> > > to the Wikimedia projects. > > > > >> > > We understand that fundraising is not an easy job, especially > > > when it > > > > >> is > > > > >> > > done on a global level. Yet we feel obliged to use donors > money > > to > > > > >> build > > > > >> > > and deliver the best projects we can: firstly out of respect > for > > > all > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > people who decided to donate their time, their money or their > > > career > > > > >> to the > > > > >> > > movement; secondly because a badly executed projects could > also > > > have a > > > > >> > > negative impact on the next fundraising campaigns. > > > > >> > > We are all part of the same movement: the work of the WMF > > > fundraising > > > > >> team > > > > >> > > is strictly linked to that of the community. We would like to > be > > > > >> confident > > > > >> > > that what is happening now won't happen for a third time, and > > > that in > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > future we will be able to communicate more effectively and > work > > > more > > > > >> > > collaboratively. > > > > >> > > We really are looking forward a more effective cooperation > with > > > WMF > > > > >> and all > > > > >> > > other Wikimedia Affiliates: collaboration is the very pillar > of > > > all > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > Wikimedia movement. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > We would like to thank all the people who supported us and > gave > > us > > > > >> opinions > > > > >> > > and advices on this mailing list and elsewhere. > > > > >> > > We are very proud to be part of such a great community, and we > > > would > > > > >> like > > > > >> > > to see it become wider and bigger. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > Andrea Zanni > > > > >> > > for the board of Wikimedia Italia > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > > > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > >> > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >> > > Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > > >> , > > > > >> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > >> > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >> > Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > >> > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > >> Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >> < > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/guidelineswikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > > > >> Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > > , > > > > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>