there is a compromise license cc-by without the sa

On 20 December 2015 at 21:38, Lydia Pintscher <>

> On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 2:18 PM, Andreas Kolbe <> wrote:
> > Lydia,
> >
> > I can only relate my impressions to you. The first two items I looked at
> Now we're getting somewhere ;-)
> > (Jerusalem and Obama) happened to be protected, so on my first visit I
> was
> > completely non-plussed as to how to edit anything on Wikidata. I never
> > noticed the lock icon (whereas I would have noticed, say, a coloured box
> at
> > the top of the page informing me that the item is locked). If I had been
> > just a random user, I would not have been back.
> Ok. I think we can make the icon more colorful for example to draw
> more attention to it. Mind you the icon is on-line with what you see
> on Wikipedia as well. That is why we have it.
> > Once I got over that one, I found the order in which statements are
> listed
> > completely confusing. I would have expected them to follow some logical
> > order, but it seems they are permanently *listed in the order in which
> they
> > were added to Wikidata*. So someone's date of birth can be the last
> > statement on a Wikidata page, or the first.
> >
> > Compare for example the location of the date of birth for Angela Merkel
> in
> > to the location of Barack Obama's
> date
> > of birth in
> >
> > I tried to figure out a way to change the order, but couldn't find one.
> > Again, profoundly demotivating. Machines may not be bothered by this,
> > because they can instantly find what they are looking for, but people
> are.
> >
> > It might help to establish a default order for statements that makes
> > logical sense to a human being, and that people can become used to.
> Yes that is indeed one of the problems we have identified for quite
> some time already. It is high on the list for 2016. I hope we get to
> it in Q1.
> > As for actual editing, a few weeks ago, figuring out how to add an IBM
> > subsidiary to the IBM item, with a reference, must have taken me
> something
> > like half an hour. I read Wikidata:Introduction, learned about
> properties,
> > and then checked Help:Editing, which contained *nothing* about adding
> > properties. The word is not even mentioned.
> Ok so on-wiki documentation is not good enough. Point taken. It has
> been written by editors who are familiar with Wikidata. Giving
> feedback on the talk pages for those help pages would be valuable.
> > After clicking "add" in the *existing* subsidiaries statement for IBM
> item,
> > I saw a question mark icon with a "help text" that reads,
> >
> > ---o0o---
> >
> > Enter a value corresponding to the property named "subsidiaries". If the
> > property has no designated value or the actual value is not known, you
> may
> > choose an alternative to specifying a custom value by clicking the icon
> > next to the value input box.
> >
> > ---o0o---
> >
> > I didn't find this text helpful at all. It could have simply said, "Enter
> > the name of the subsidiary in the text box, and then add a reference."
> It is not as easy as that unfortunately. Potentially no item exists
> for that subsidiary and then you need to create one. Also the
> explanation for no-value and some-value in the text is important
> (though we need to improve the UI for them). But point taken we can
> improve this message.
> > At any rate, this is what I did. After I clicked "add reference", I got a
> > new field that came with a "property" drop down menu pre-populated with
> > "sex or gender", "date of birth", "given name", "occupation", "country of
> > citizenship", "GND identifier" and "image", none of which are remotely
> > relevant to entering a reference.
> Those should not have shown up for references and I am not aware of
> issues with that. Which statement was this specifically? The
> suggestions are not always perfect but at least the distinction
> between properties in the main part of the statement and its
> references should work very well.
> > The single property that would be most useful to list in that drop down
> > menu when people have said they want to add a reference is "reference
> URL".
> > But it's not included. If newbies don't know this property exists, how
> are
> > they supposed to discover it? Somehow I got there, but it was not
> enjoyable.
> As above this should have shown up.
> > These are indeed all user interface issues, and quite separate from the
> > other aspects we have been talking about. But they contribute to making
> > this wiki less attractive as a site that ordinary people might want to
> > contribute to manually, on a casual basis.
> >
> > Yes, if you are sufficiently motivated, you can figure things out. But as
> > things stand, I didn't find it inviting.
> Sure. As I said we still have quite some work to do and feedback such
> as the above is what will help us make it better.
> > On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Lydia Pintscher <
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> That is why I am working with re-users of Wikidata's data on this.
> >> They can link to Wikidata. They can build ways to let their users edit
> >> in-place. inventaire and Histropedia are two projects that show the
> >> start of this. As I wrote in my Signpost piece it needs work and
> >> education that is ongoing.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Use a licence that requires re-users to mention "Wikidata" on their
> sites,
> > ideally with a link to the Wikidata disclaimer, and you won't have to do
> > any education at all, and at the same time you'll have done a great thing
> > for transparency of data provenance on the internet.
> >
> > Moreover, you will have ensured that hundreds of millions of Internet
> users
> > are told where they can find Wikidata and edit it. Surely, if you
> actually
> > *want* to have human beings visiting and editing your wiki, that's in
> your
> > interest?
> I think we have to agree to disagree on the licensing part and what is
> best for Wikidata there. Yes I do want people to come to Wikidata but
> I do not want the license to be our forceful stick to achieve this. We
> have to work to build a project that people want to come to and
> contribute to. And we can do it as the number of editors for example
> shows.
> Cheers
> Lydia
> --
> Lydia Pintscher -
> Product Manager for Wikidata
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
> 10963 Berlin
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
> Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
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