Informative discussion. Thank you all. I knew the history here, but seeing it come alive from these various perspectives further clarified that history for me.
Thank you. /a On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 9:00 AM, Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com> wrote: > Magnus, regarding, "...at some point, you have to leave the test > environment, and test your product against reality." > > Of course. But VE was far, far too bad for real time when it was released. > Really. It was driving newbies away. The sensible embracers-of-change threw > it out, in the end. The squealing Ludites don't have the numbers for that. > When the sensible majority starts squealing, the developers really need to > pay attention. > > I didn't follow it carefully but it seemed to me the release of the Image > Viewer was much better timed and handled. Ludites squealed but genuine > concerns were addressed promptly and respectfully. > > Anthony Cole > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:58 PM, Magnus Manske < > magnusman...@googlemail.com > > wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 3:40 PM Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > Magnus, in the interview you said "From the Media Viewer, the Visual > > > Editor, to Wikidata transclusion, all have been resisted by vocal > groups > > of > > > editors, not because they are a problem, but because they represent > > change. > > > For these editors, the site has worked fine for years; why change > > > anything?" > > > > > > Well, yes. No one here, I'm sure, will argue there aren't such groups. > > > > > > But the problem with the blog post is you only mention them. > > > > > > Because they are the problem, and they (by being vocal) often get more > > attention than a more silent, sensible majority. But by getting > attention, > > they shape the general consensus, in a negative way. > > > > > > > You don't take > > > into account the very much larger crowd, including myself, who were > > hanging > > > out for the visual editor and were contemptuously flicked off by the > > > developers when we brought up fatal flaws, as just some more > > > superconservative no-vision Ludites - haters of change. > > > > > > > I am not going to get into a who-said-what-to-whom-in-what-tone > discussion > > here. I wouldn't be surprised if some developers didn't bother to > > differentiate between sensible feedback and nay-sayers. As I have said in > > this mail thread, I hope the Foundation has learned how to deal with > > feedback more sensibly. > > > > > > > > > > The first version of VE was so bad it was harming our mission. It was > far > > > worse than "didn't do everything 100% right." It would have been > bounced > > > back from the community to the developers even if that first group of > > > bitter, change-hating autistic ranters hadn't said a word. > > > > > > > Consider this perspective: I doubt the developers would have pushed out > > that first version if it had massively failed their own tests. But at > some > > point, you have to leave the test environment, and test your product > > against reality. Remember, WMF is not Microsoft, with an army of > thousands > > of paid beta-testers. > > > > So then it turns out there are more (and more really bad) bugs than > > anticipated. Then you go and fix those bugs. Which is what they did. But > > turning a major endeavour on and off repeatedly is just a bad thing to > do. > > AFICT the window where wrong edits were made by VE was not /that/ large. > > Apparently, the decision was made to "power through it", rather than flip > > the switch repeatedly. That may or may not have been the right strategy. > > > > > > > > > > I notice VE isn't even an option when I log out and edit en.Wikipedia, > > yet > > > above others are saying it is much improved and ready for release. What > > are > > > we waiting for? > > > > > > > This is the thing. The atmosphere has been poisoned against VE, which now > > makes it much harder to get a good product deployed. > > > > But I agree with the sentiment. What ARE we waiting for? > > > > Cheers, > > Magnus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony Cole > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:56 PM, Andrew Lih <andrew....@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Magnus, you've missed the point of the visual editor revolt. A > couple > > > of > > > > > people here have tried to explain that to you, politely. And you're > > > > > persisting with your idée fixe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be fair, Magnus was addressing more than just the initial > complaints > > > > from 2013. He said, “condemning an entire product forever because the > > > first > > > > version didn’t do everything 100% right is just plain stupid.” > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > -- Anna Stillwell Major Gifts Officer Wikimedia Foundation 415.806.1536 *www.wikimediafoundation.org <http://www.wikimediafoundation.org>* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
