I'm not sure where you get your impressions, Magnus. But when I discuss
ideas for a better implementation of Wikidata into Wikipedia to improve
automatisation of repetitive editing procedures, including the
implementation of the possible use of structured data, I rarely hear "It Is
Not Made Here" or "It's Bad Because Its New".

When it comes to analyse the problems with Wikidata it isn't only about
possible early-lifecycle issues(which can be fix), but about the blind spot
when it comes to develope working social processes which keep everybody
(especially the editors) in the picture.

Community involvement (especially consultations) are often seem to be
organized only out of necessity. They not in the middle of the
decision-making process. Nobody said that doing things the way they are
done in a crowdsourced, community-driven process are easy, but this is no
excuse for any Foundation or other similiar entity to set up an
intransparent, precendents creating process where community becomes
accessories.

The whole way the Knowledge Engine process was implemented, the whole still
intransparent incident of kicking a highly valued community-selected person
out of the WMF board are clear signals that some people already decided
about the future of Wikimedia and now staging a folksy broad consultation
circus to create the impression of transparent community involvement. -
Deciding about the color of the car if you would instead prefer to talk
about the vehicle is the illusion of community-based decisionmaking.

We need a lot of change in the social procedures at the level of really
needed ground work which is important for changing the Wikiprojects to make
them work for the future. To reflect and to work on the development of
these social procedures would be the most precious work to be done by the
Foundation. Instead the Foundation dreams of techbubble-driven, humanless
wonderland full of free floading informations which magically forms into
knowledge when it somehow hits a human being.

I like the idea of Wikidata.
I like the idea of combining Encylopedia with structured data to enable
understanding and easy re-use at the reader-side of Wikiprojects. So many
things are imaginable there when the culture of conveying the needed
individual and social skills are done well. Tech is only tool to these
processes. Tools are important, but not the purpose when it comes to
disseminate knowledge.

regards,
Jens




2016-01-19 15:56 GMT+01:00 Magnus Manske <magnusman...@googlemail.com>:

> Anthony, it does seem you've missed some of which I wrote in this thread. I
> have no problem with specific criticism where it is deserved, and I do well
> remember that the Visual Editor, in its early incarnation, was not quite up
> to the job.
>
> What I do have a problem with is people fixating on some technical or
> early-lifecycle issues, declaring the entire thing worthless, even
> dangerous, and spreading that view around. This behaviour, I have seen time
> and again, with the Media Viewer, with Wikidata.
>
> It's bad because it's broken - let's come together and fix it.
>
> It's bad because ... well, everyone says it's bad. And new. And Not Made
> Here. THAT is a problem, and not a technological one.
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 2:39 PM Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Magnus, you've missed the point of the visual editor revolt. A couple of
> > people here have tried to explain that to you, politely. And you're
> > persisting with your idée fixe.
> >
> > There were two parts to the visual editor catastrophe, actually. The
> > product wasn't ready for anyone to use. Not veteran editors. Not newbies.
> > Newbies who used it were less likely to successfully complete an edit. It
> > was broken, and the WMF insisted we had to use it.
> >
> > The second part of the problem was arrogance. Yes, a few editors were
> > unnecessarily rude about the product and the developers. But then most of
> > the developers and tech staff who dealt with the community arrogantly
> > characterised *anyone* who complained about the product as an ignorant,
> > selfish Ludite - and you're persisting with that characterisation now.
> >
> > The WMF under Lila has learned the lessons from that, and they have
> > fostered a much healthier relationship between the developers and the
> > community. You clearly haven't learned all you might have.
> >
> > In fact, reading the arrogant responses from you here and in the
> concurrent
> > thread titled "How to disseminate free knowledge," and from Denny in
> > earlier threads addressing criticism of WikiData, it seems to me there is
> > still a significant arrogance problem that needs addressing, at least
> over
> > at WikiData.
> >
> > Some people may approach you arrogantly, maybe even insultingly, about an
> > innovation, and I suppose you might be justified in talking down to them
> or
> > ridiculing them (though I advise against it.). But if you can't
> distinguish
> > them from those who approach you with genuine concerns and well-founded
> > criticisms, then no matter how clever you think your technical solutions
> > are, you will soon find you're no more welcome here than those WMF
> staffers
> > who thought insulting well-meaning critics was a good career move.
> >
> > Denny's contemptuous dismissal of valid criticisms of his project, and
> your
> > contemptuous dismissal of the valid criticisms of the early visual editor
> > and its launch are both very disappointing.
> >
> > Anthony Cole
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Magnus Manske <
> > magnusman...@googlemail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The iPhone was a commercial success because it let you do the basic
> > > functions easily and intuitively, and looked shiny at the same time. We
> > do
> > > not charge a price; our "win" comes by people using our product. If we
> > can
> > > present the product in such a way that more people use it, it is a
> > success
> > > for us.
> > >
> > > I do stand by my example :-)
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 10:37 PM Michael Peel <em...@mikepeel.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > On 18 Jan 2016, at 22:35, Magnus Manske <
> magnusman...@googlemail.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > As one can be overly conservative, one can also be overly
> > > enthusiastic. I
> > > > > would hope the Foundation by now understands better how to handle
> new
> > > > > software releases. Apple here shows the way: Basic functionality,
> but
> > > > > working smoothly first.
> > > >
> > > > But at a huge cost premium? I'm not sure that's a good example to
> make
> > > > here. :-/
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Mike
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