Anthony, it does seem you've missed some of which I wrote in this thread. I have no problem with specific criticism where it is deserved, and I do well remember that the Visual Editor, in its early incarnation, was not quite up to the job.
What I do have a problem with is people fixating on some technical or early-lifecycle issues, declaring the entire thing worthless, even dangerous, and spreading that view around. This behaviour, I have seen time and again, with the Media Viewer, with Wikidata. It's bad because it's broken - let's come together and fix it. It's bad because ... well, everyone says it's bad. And new. And Not Made Here. THAT is a problem, and not a technological one. On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 2:39 PM Anthony Cole <ahcole...@gmail.com> wrote: > Magnus, you've missed the point of the visual editor revolt. A couple of > people here have tried to explain that to you, politely. And you're > persisting with your idée fixe. > > There were two parts to the visual editor catastrophe, actually. The > product wasn't ready for anyone to use. Not veteran editors. Not newbies. > Newbies who used it were less likely to successfully complete an edit. It > was broken, and the WMF insisted we had to use it. > > The second part of the problem was arrogance. Yes, a few editors were > unnecessarily rude about the product and the developers. But then most of > the developers and tech staff who dealt with the community arrogantly > characterised *anyone* who complained about the product as an ignorant, > selfish Ludite - and you're persisting with that characterisation now. > > The WMF under Lila has learned the lessons from that, and they have > fostered a much healthier relationship between the developers and the > community. You clearly haven't learned all you might have. > > In fact, reading the arrogant responses from you here and in the concurrent > thread titled "How to disseminate free knowledge," and from Denny in > earlier threads addressing criticism of WikiData, it seems to me there is > still a significant arrogance problem that needs addressing, at least over > at WikiData. > > Some people may approach you arrogantly, maybe even insultingly, about an > innovation, and I suppose you might be justified in talking down to them or > ridiculing them (though I advise against it.). But if you can't distinguish > them from those who approach you with genuine concerns and well-founded > criticisms, then no matter how clever you think your technical solutions > are, you will soon find you're no more welcome here than those WMF staffers > who thought insulting well-meaning critics was a good career move. > > Denny's contemptuous dismissal of valid criticisms of his project, and your > contemptuous dismissal of the valid criticisms of the early visual editor > and its launch are both very disappointing. > > Anthony Cole > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Magnus Manske < > magnusman...@googlemail.com> > wrote: > > > The iPhone was a commercial success because it let you do the basic > > functions easily and intuitively, and looked shiny at the same time. We > do > > not charge a price; our "win" comes by people using our product. If we > can > > present the product in such a way that more people use it, it is a > success > > for us. > > > > I do stand by my example :-) > > > > On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 10:37 PM Michael Peel <em...@mikepeel.net> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 18 Jan 2016, at 22:35, Magnus Manske <magnusman...@googlemail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > As one can be overly conservative, one can also be overly > > enthusiastic. I > > > > would hope the Foundation by now understands better how to handle new > > > > software releases. Apple here shows the way: Basic functionality, but > > > > working smoothly first. > > > > > > But at a huge cost premium? I'm not sure that's a good example to make > > > here. :-/ > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
