Thanks Risker.  Maybe there is a mixing of levels here.

I am urging that we address things have become broken on a deep level,
namely the gap between what the board says and what James has said and the
destruction of trust caused by that gap.

If all Pierre was doing was saying that he disagreed with the November
decision, that has really nothing to do with what I am trying to discuss.
My sense was that he was responding on the level I was discussing and
saying that the decision itself was trust-destroying.  Perhaps I was wrong.
  That could well be.

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Risker <risker...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hold on, Jytdog, I think you're reading more into Pierre's statement than
> is really there.
>
> Pierre has not said the decision to retain the ED "was itself
> trust-destroying for [him]".  He said it was a mistake, and he said it was
> a mistake because the board was wrong to think that the ED could recover
> from a 90% staff disapproval level.
>
> He also pointed out that "[i]f the board decide to keep the CEO/ED, the
> board cannot go and undermine the authority of the CEO by communicating
> doubts".  Thus he is not particularly concerned about the board saying the
> support was unanimous. Pierre's concern is that the board thought it was a
> good idea to keep an ED with a 90% staff disapproval rating.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
> On 7 March 2016 at 18:24, jytdog <jyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Pierre that is exactly what I struggle with.  You are saying that
> throwing
> > integrity out the window in the name of politics is OK.  I am saying it
> is
> > absolutely not OK.  The individuals representing the board should have
> been
> > honest and simply said "The board supports the ED" and left it at that,
> and
> > if asked, yes, been honest that support was not unanimous.
> Misrepresenting
> > things a) accomplished nothing, as we can see now, and b) opened huge
> rifts
> > that remain gaping today.
> >
> > I do hear you, that the decision to retain the ED in November was itself
> > trust-destroying for you, because you view that as such bad judgement. I
> > hear that.
> >
> > To me, making public misrepresentations is another thing altogether.  It
> > calls into question whether folks are even telling the truth, and that
> just
> > destroys the very basis for authentic conversation.  It is a deeper
> wound.
> > This to me, bars the way to move forward.
> >
> > How do we trust what the board says going forward?  How can the board be
> > effective, when people cannot trust what its members say about its
> > decisions?
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 5:57 PM, Pierre-Selim <pierre-se...@huard.info>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seriously ?
> > >
> > > If the board decide to keep the CEO/ED, the board cannot go and
> undermine
> > > the authority of the CEO by communicating doubts.
> > >
> > > The mistake was not to say unanimous support but the "keep the ED"
> straw
> > > poll result. It really surprised me because the more you wait the more
> it
> > > costs (talents leave, delayed arrival of a new CEO, ...), and honnestly
> > > there is no recovery possible at 90% of disapproval from your staff
> > > (C-levels included).
> > > Le 7 mars 2016 7:16 PM, "jytdog" <jyt...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> > >
> > > > Craig, thanks for your reply on this. This is actually not about HR
> > > > matters.  It is about what board members chose to do and say.
> > > >
> > > > It would have made little difference in the RW if they had said "the
> > > board
> > > > supports Lila" (and if there was a majority vote for that, the board
> > did
> > > > support Lila) vs "the board unanimously supports Lila".  They chose
> to
> > > > state the latter.  That has nothing to do with Lila per se, and
> > > everything
> > > > to do with the choices individuals made in representing what the
> board
> > > > actually did.
> > > >
> > > > This is what I meant.  Poor processes poorly executed definitely
> > allowed
> > > > this to happen;  if board votes were accurately recorded in minutes
> and
> > > > swiftly published, what happened would not be even possible or would
> be
> > > so
> > > > foolish that no one would do it.  But these were still choices that
> > > > individuals made in the context that existed.
> > > >
> > > > These choices and those of other board members  - as individuals  -
> > have
> > > > created an unbearable set of contradictions that need to resolved.
> > This
> > > is
> > > > what we should focus on.  I hope you can see that the HR angle is a a
> > > > distraction from that, as this has nothing to do with WMF staff per
> se.
> > > >
> > > > Yes we should also urge the board to develop more rigorous procedures
> > and
> > > > to follow them more closely to make it harder for individuals to make
> > bad
> > > > choices, but there is still resolving what did happen, so that we can
> > go
> > > > forward.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 1:50 AM, Craig Franklin <
> > > cfrank...@halonetwork.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > To be honest, I consider it unlikely that Patricio or anyone else
> is
> > > > going
> > > > > to discuss HR matters at length in public, even when they concern
> > Lila,
> > > > and
> > > > > especially when they could potentially be interpreted as negative
> > > > towards a
> > > > > particular identifiable individual.  For legal reasons, it might be
> > the
> > > > > case that the BoT will let Lila have as dignified an exit as
> possible
> > > > from
> > > > > the organisation, without putting a whole bunch of information into
> > the
> > > > > public domain about how they regarded her performance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Craig
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7 March 2016 at 16:39, Oliver Keyes <ironho...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > +1. I would also very much appreciate Patricio explaining whether
> > the
> > > > > > "full confidence of the board" actually meant the full
> confidence:
> > > > > > IOW, that a vote was taken and everyone unanimously agreed that
> > > Lila's
> > > > > > continuation was the best thing.
> > > > > >
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