"We" are a subset of everyone. If Wikipedia belongs to everyone, it belongs to "us" as well. It seems that Fram who was one of us has just been excluded from our community by questionable process. I agree that this should not happen, but suggest that it is sometimes necessary to exclude people from our community when they are shown in fair process to be unable to cooperate in furthering the purposes of the project. Some of us try to make it reasonably easy and pleasant to join the community and help build the project, but it is not compulsory, either to make it pleasant, or to join. However credibility and respect beyond that which should be afforded to anyone by virtue of being human are earned. Cheers, P -----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Robert Fernandez Sent: 12 June 2019 16:08 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block
> I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and find that > you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. This is part of the problem right here. This isn't our project and we shouldn't be trying to exclude people from our community. Wikipedia belongs to everyone. On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:53 AM Peter Southwood <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > > Thrapostibongles, > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and find that > you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. > While it is possible that you have a long and distinguished edit history > under a previous name or as an IP editor, it leads me to wonder just how > familiar you are with the customs and culture of enwiki, which I freely agree > are non-optimal, but have evolved to sort of work in an environment which was > predicted to be impossible. Yet here we are, dysfunctionally surviving when > we are theoretically long extinct. Our dysfunctional mores function as they > do and evolve through surviving and occasional modification by consensus of > those who care enough to take part in the process, within the environment in > which we work. We are somewhere between an anarchy and a community, and we do > not generally appreciate pontification from outsiders, which is what you > appear to be, and to a large extent, what we consider WMF to be. It is a > problem. If WMF chooses to rule by fiat it will have interesting > consequences. So far they have mostly avoided that, and when they have it has > not ended well. If you consider yourself an expert in something relevant I > invite you to show evidence of your credentials. Otherwise we will take your > comments as we do those of any other unproven internet commentator. > This is just my personal take, I do not presume to represent anyone else. You > are as free to ignore me as I am to ignore you, but engaging in this > discussion has its consequences, and one of them is to be questioned. > Cheers, > Peter Southwood > > -----Original Message----- > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf > Of Mister Thrapostibongles > Sent: 12 June 2019 09:06 > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > > Yaroslav, > > I think it's reasonably clear that the English Wikipedia community and its > community structures, such as its Arbitration Committee, and processes are > not capable of maintaining a productive, harassment-free environment for > the volunteer workers. For example, they have consistently failed, after > several attempts, to handle the case of a volunteer who used the word > "Cxxx" about a fellow worker, and the community has agreed that telling > others to "Fxxx off" is acceptable. These are symptoms of a dysfunctional > community, which tolerates behaviour that is unacceptable in any collegial > working environment, and it is right that the Foundation should step in. > > Thrapostibongles > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 4:56 PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > The point made by pretty much everyone is not that Fram should or should > > not be banned, but that the process in this case should have followed the > > standard dispute resolution avenues, More specifically, the case should > > have been communicated to the Arbitration Committee, whose members did sign > > the non-disclosure agreement. > > > > This is different from the past cases when users were banned by WMF, since > > in this case it was made clear the case is based on on-wiki open activity > > of Fram (and, specifically, only on the English Wikipedia). The on-wiki > > activity is subject to the community policies. > > > > To be clear, I am not a friend of Fram, and in the past supported desysop > > on a number of occasions. > > > > Cheers > > Yaroslav > > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 5:46 PM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgr...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all aspects and things Fram > > has > > > done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to see how fast > > > people jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I personally, > > > don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose the ban. As > > > simple as that. > > > > > > So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a community > > body > > > can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things: > > > - They had signed NDA not to disclose the case > > > - They are trusted by the community > > > > > > I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but not sure > > > (Does ArbCom NDA'ed?) > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < > > > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new. > > > > I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?) based on a > > > > false accusation, without providing any evidence. Until now I'm waiting > > > for > > > > an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude doesn't surprise > > > me > > > > at all. > > > > It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in this kind of > > > > medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the Wikimedia > > Movement. > > > > Matter for Roles & Reponsibilities. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > Paulo > > > > > > > > > > > > Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminik...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia terça, > > > 11/06/2019 > > > > à(s) 05:45: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for this. > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the unilateralism > > and > > > > > lack of transparency. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224 <techman...@techman224.ca> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively dead. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated that they > > > > weren't > > > > > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom forwarding a > > > > > concern to the office. [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that "local > > > > > communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own > > > autonomous > > > > > rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no > > complaints > > > > > on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately. > > > > > > > > > > > > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the Bureaucrats and the > > > > Arbcom > > > > > noticeboards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Request_for_ArbCom_to_comment_publicly_on_Fram's_ban > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 > > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 > > > > > > > > > > > > [2] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statement_from_the_WMF_Trust_&_Safety_Team > > > > > > > > > > > > Techman224 > > > > > > > > > > > >> Begin forwarded message: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> From: George Herbert <george.herb...@gmail.com> > > > > > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > > > > > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT > > > > > >> To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> > > > > > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office S&T blocked English > > > > > Wikipedia > > > > > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped, for > > unspecified > > > > > >> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief statement here > > > from > > > > > >> Office regarding it which gave no details other than that normal > > > > policy > > > > > and > > > > > >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which under normal > > > > > >> circumstances preclude public comments. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented they're making > > > > private > > > > > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication channels, due > > to > > > > the > > > > > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed IMHO into > > > "Ok, > > > > > >> responsible people following up". > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics under Office > > > > actions, > > > > > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private stuff > > myself > > > at > > > > > >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target is most > > > > unusual > > > > > but > > > > > >> not unheard of. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they had any > > public > > > > > >> comment, no reply as yet. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> -- > > > > > >> -george william herbert > > > > > >> george.herb...@gmail.com > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list > > > > > >> wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > > > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Amir (he/him) > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
