If the WMF is protecting us, who is protecting us from WMF when due process is not followed, and false accusations and arbitrary punishments start being issued by them?
To who /what can we appeal? Paulo A quarta, 12 de jun de 2019, 17:35, Robert Fernandez <[email protected]> escreveu: > Of course it doesn't belong to the WMF. It belongs to everyone, and > that includes the victims of harassment who have no one to turn to > except the WMF. I am not aware of the circumstances of this office > action, but I am of a couple of the others, and there was nothing > involving the star chamber hyperbole you describe. Transparency is > key to the project in terms of policy making and article creation, but > the project cannot ethically demand transparency as you define it in > private matters involving things like (for example) off wiki > harassment and sexual abuse. This process involves multiple layers of > investigation and approval. The only thing it lacks is the ability > for you to pore over salacious details of someone's victimization. > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 12:07 PM Todd Allen <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Robert, > > > > These two aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, Wikipedia belongs to everyone. > Specifically, a place in the community of Wikipedia editors is open to > anyone who would like to join. Those of us here have already done that. But > it is natural in any community or organization to give more weight to > respected, long-term members than those who just joined up yesterday. > They've learned the ropes and demonstrated a commitment to it. > > > > However, the project categorically does not belong to the WMF. The WMF > exists to serve and assist Wikimedia projects, not lord it over and rule > them. And since "Wikipedia belongs to everyone", we certainly shouldn't be > throwing people out in secret Star Chamber-style proceedings, where > apparently even the accused is not permitted to know all the evidence > against them. That is utterly antithetical to the open, community-run ethos > of the project. > > > > Todd > > > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 8:09 AM Robert Fernandez <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and > find that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. > >> > >> This is part of the problem right here. This isn't our project and we > >> shouldn't be trying to exclude people from our community. Wikipedia > >> belongs to everyone. > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:53 AM Peter Southwood > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > Thrapostibongles, > >> > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and > find that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. > >> > While it is possible that you have a long and distinguished edit > history under a previous name or as an IP editor, it leads me to wonder > just how familiar you are with the customs and culture of enwiki, which I > freely agree are non-optimal, but have evolved to sort of work in an > environment which was predicted to be impossible. Yet here we are, > dysfunctionally surviving when we are theoretically long extinct. Our > dysfunctional mores function as they do and evolve through surviving and > occasional modification by consensus of those who care enough to take part > in the process, within the environment in which we work. We are somewhere > between an anarchy and a community, and we do not generally appreciate > pontification from outsiders, which is what you appear to be, and to a > large extent, what we consider WMF to be. It is a problem. If WMF chooses > to rule by fiat it will have interesting consequences. So far they have > mostly avoided that, and when they have it has not ended well. If you > consider yourself an expert in something relevant I invite you to show > evidence of your credentials. Otherwise we will take your comments as we do > those of any other unproven internet commentator. > >> > This is just my personal take, I do not presume to represent anyone > else. You are as free to ignore me as I am to ignore you, but engaging in > this discussion has its consequences, and one of them is to be questioned. > >> > Cheers, > >> > Peter Southwood > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles > >> > Sent: 12 June 2019 09:06 > >> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > >> > > >> > Yaroslav, > >> > > >> > I think it's reasonably clear that the English Wikipedia community > and its > >> > community structures, such as its Arbitration Committee, and > processes are > >> > not capable of maintaining a productive, harassment-free environment > for > >> > the volunteer workers. For example, they have consistently failed, > after > >> > several attempts, to handle the case of a volunteer who used the word > >> > "Cxxx" about a fellow worker, and the community has agreed that > telling > >> > others to "Fxxx off" is acceptable. These are symptoms of a > dysfunctional > >> > community, which tolerates behaviour that is unacceptable in any > collegial > >> > working environment, and it is right that the Foundation should step > in. > >> > > >> > Thrapostibongles > >> > > >> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 4:56 PM Yaroslav Blanter <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > > >> > > The point made by pretty much everyone is not that Fram should or > should > >> > > not be banned, but that the process in this case should have > followed the > >> > > standard dispute resolution avenues, More specifically, the case > should > >> > > have been communicated to the Arbitration Committee, whose members > did sign > >> > > the non-disclosure agreement. > >> > > > >> > > This is different from the past cases when users were banned by > WMF, since > >> > > in this case it was made clear the case is based on on-wiki open > activity > >> > > of Fram (and, specifically, only on the English Wikipedia). The > on-wiki > >> > > activity is subject to the community policies. > >> > > > >> > > To be clear, I am not a friend of Fram, and in the past supported > desysop > >> > > on a number of occasions. > >> > > > >> > > Cheers > >> > > Yaroslav > >> > > > >> > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 5:46 PM Amir Sarabadani < > [email protected]> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all aspects and > things Fram > >> > > has > >> > > > done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to see > how fast > >> > > > people jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I > personally, > >> > > > don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose the > ban. As > >> > > > simple as that. > >> > > > > >> > > > So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a > community > >> > > body > >> > > > can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things: > >> > > > - They had signed NDA not to disclose the case > >> > > > - They are trusted by the community > >> > > > > >> > > > I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but > not sure > >> > > > (Does ArbCom NDA'ed?) > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < > >> > > > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new. > >> > > > > I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?) > based on a > >> > > > > false accusation, without providing any evidence. Until now I'm > waiting > >> > > > for > >> > > > > an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude doesn't > surprise > >> > > > me > >> > > > > at all. > >> > > > > It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in this > kind of > >> > > > > medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the Wikimedia > >> > > Movement. > >> > > > > Matter for Roles & Reponsibilities. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Best, > >> > > > > Paulo > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Benjamin Ikuta <[email protected]> escreveu no dia terça, > >> > > > 11/06/2019 > >> > > > > à(s) 05:45: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks for this. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the > unilateralism > >> > > and > >> > > > > > lack of transparency. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224 < > [email protected]> > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively dead. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated that > they > >> > > > > weren't > >> > > > > > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom > forwarding a > >> > > > > > concern to the office. [1] > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that > "local > >> > > > > > communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own > >> > > > autonomous > >> > > > > > rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no > >> > > complaints > >> > > > > > on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the Bureaucrats > and the > >> > > > > Arbcom > >> > > > > > noticeboards. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > >> > > > > > < > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Request_for_ArbCom_to_comment_publicly_on_Fram's_ban > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > [1] > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 > >> > > > > > < > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > [2] > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statement_from_the_WMF_Trust_&_Safety_Team > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Techman224 > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Begin forwarded message: > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> From: George Herbert <[email protected]> > >> > > > > > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block > >> > > > > > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT > >> > > > > > >> To: English Wikipedia <[email protected]> > >> > > > > > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <[email protected]> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office S&T blocked > English > >> > > > > > Wikipedia > >> > > > > > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped, for > >> > > unspecified > >> > > > > > >> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief > statement here > >> > > > from > >> > > > > > >> Office regarding it which gave no details other than that > normal > >> > > > > policy > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which under > normal > >> > > > > > >> circumstances preclude public comments. > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented they're > making > >> > > > > private > >> > > > > > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication > channels, due > >> > > to > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action. > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed > IMHO into > >> > > > "Ok, > >> > > > > > >> responsible people following up". > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics under > Office > >> > > > > actions, > >> > > > > > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private > stuff > >> > > myself > >> > > > at > >> > > > > > >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target is > most > >> > > > > unusual > >> > > > > > but > >> > > > > > >> not unheard of. > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they had > any > >> > > public > >> > > > > > >> comment, no reply as yet. > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > >> -- > >> > > > > > >> -george william herbert > >> > > > > > >> [email protected] > >> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> > > > > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list > >> > > > > > >> [email protected] > >> > > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > >> > > > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> > > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > >> > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > >> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > ?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> > > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > >> > > > > > Unsubscribe: > >> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> > > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > ?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> > > > > New messages to: [email protected] > >> > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> > > > > <mailto:[email protected] > ?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > -- > >> > > > Amir (he/him) > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> > > > New messages to: [email protected] > >> > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> > > > <mailto:[email protected] > ?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> > > New messages to: [email protected] > >> > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> > > <mailto:[email protected] > ?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> > New messages to: [email protected] > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > > >> > --- > >> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > >> > https://www.avg.com > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> > New messages to: [email protected] > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> New messages to: [email protected] > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
