The board, including its community representatives. On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 1:38 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: > > If the WMF is protecting us, who is protecting us from WMF when due process > is not followed, and false accusations and arbitrary punishments start being > issued by them? > > To who /what can we appeal? > > Paulo > > A quarta, 12 de jun de 2019, 17:35, Robert Fernandez <wikigamal...@gmail.com> > escreveu: >> >> Of course it doesn't belong to the WMF. It belongs to everyone, and >> that includes the victims of harassment who have no one to turn to >> except the WMF. I am not aware of the circumstances of this office >> action, but I am of a couple of the others, and there was nothing >> involving the star chamber hyperbole you describe. Transparency is >> key to the project in terms of policy making and article creation, but >> the project cannot ethically demand transparency as you define it in >> private matters involving things like (for example) off wiki >> harassment and sexual abuse. This process involves multiple layers of >> investigation and approval. The only thing it lacks is the ability >> for you to pore over salacious details of someone's victimization. >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 12:07 PM Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Robert, >> > >> > These two aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, Wikipedia belongs to everyone. >> > Specifically, a place in the community of Wikipedia editors is open to >> > anyone who would like to join. Those of us here have already done that. >> > But it is natural in any community or organization to give more weight to >> > respected, long-term members than those who just joined up yesterday. >> > They've learned the ropes and demonstrated a commitment to it. >> > >> > However, the project categorically does not belong to the WMF. The WMF >> > exists to serve and assist Wikimedia projects, not lord it over and rule >> > them. And since "Wikipedia belongs to everyone", we certainly shouldn't be >> > throwing people out in secret Star Chamber-style proceedings, where >> > apparently even the accused is not permitted to know all the evidence >> > against them. That is utterly antithetical to the open, community-run >> > ethos of the project. >> > >> > Todd >> > >> > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 8:09 AM Robert Fernandez <wikigamal...@gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and >> >> > find that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. >> >> >> >> This is part of the problem right here. This isn't our project and we >> >> shouldn't be trying to exclude people from our community. Wikipedia >> >> belongs to everyone. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:53 AM Peter Southwood >> >> <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Thrapostibongles, >> >> > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and >> >> > find that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. >> >> > While it is possible that you have a long and distinguished edit >> >> > history under a previous name or as an IP editor, it leads me to wonder >> >> > just how familiar you are with the customs and culture of enwiki, which >> >> > I freely agree are non-optimal, but have evolved to sort of work in an >> >> > environment which was predicted to be impossible. Yet here we are, >> >> > dysfunctionally surviving when we are theoretically long extinct. Our >> >> > dysfunctional mores function as they do and evolve through surviving >> >> > and occasional modification by consensus of those who care enough to >> >> > take part in the process, within the environment in which we work. We >> >> > are somewhere between an anarchy and a community, and we do not >> >> > generally appreciate pontification from outsiders, which is what you >> >> > appear to be, and to a large extent, what we consider WMF to be. It is >> >> > a problem. If WMF chooses to rule by fiat it will have interesting >> >> > consequences. So far they have mostly avoided that, and when they have >> >> > it has not ended well. If you consider yourself an expert in something >> >> > relevant I invite you to show evidence of your credentials. Otherwise >> >> > we will take your comments as we do those of any other unproven >> >> > internet commentator. >> >> > This is just my personal take, I do not presume to represent anyone >> >> > else. You are as free to ignore me as I am to ignore you, but engaging >> >> > in this discussion has its consequences, and one of them is to be >> >> > questioned. >> >> > Cheers, >> >> > Peter Southwood >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On >> >> > Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles >> >> > Sent: 12 June 2019 09:06 >> >> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List >> >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block >> >> > >> >> > Yaroslav, >> >> > >> >> > I think it's reasonably clear that the English Wikipedia community and >> >> > its >> >> > community structures, such as its Arbitration Committee, and processes >> >> > are >> >> > not capable of maintaining a productive, harassment-free environment for >> >> > the volunteer workers. For example, they have consistently failed, >> >> > after >> >> > several attempts, to handle the case of a volunteer who used the word >> >> > "Cxxx" about a fellow worker, and the community has agreed that telling >> >> > others to "Fxxx off" is acceptable. These are symptoms of a >> >> > dysfunctional >> >> > community, which tolerates behaviour that is unacceptable in any >> >> > collegial >> >> > working environment, and it is right that the Foundation should step in. >> >> > >> >> > Thrapostibongles >> >> > >> >> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 4:56 PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > The point made by pretty much everyone is not that Fram should or >> >> > > should >> >> > > not be banned, but that the process in this case should have followed >> >> > > the >> >> > > standard dispute resolution avenues, More specifically, the case >> >> > > should >> >> > > have been communicated to the Arbitration Committee, whose members >> >> > > did sign >> >> > > the non-disclosure agreement. >> >> > > >> >> > > This is different from the past cases when users were banned by WMF, >> >> > > since >> >> > > in this case it was made clear the case is based on on-wiki open >> >> > > activity >> >> > > of Fram (and, specifically, only on the English Wikipedia). The >> >> > > on-wiki >> >> > > activity is subject to the community policies. >> >> > > >> >> > > To be clear, I am not a friend of Fram, and in the past supported >> >> > > desysop >> >> > > on a number of occasions. >> >> > > >> >> > > Cheers >> >> > > Yaroslav >> >> > > >> >> > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 5:46 PM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgr...@gmail.com> >> >> > > wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > > People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all aspects and things >> >> > > > Fram >> >> > > has >> >> > > > done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to see >> >> > > > how fast >> >> > > > people jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I >> >> > > > personally, >> >> > > > don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose the >> >> > > > ban. As >> >> > > > simple as that. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a >> >> > > > community >> >> > > body >> >> > > > can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things: >> >> > > > - They had signed NDA not to disclose the case >> >> > > > - They are trusted by the community >> >> > > > >> >> > > > I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but not >> >> > > > sure >> >> > > > (Does ArbCom NDA'ed?) >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < >> >> > > > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new. >> >> > > > > I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?) >> >> > > > > based on a >> >> > > > > false accusation, without providing any evidence. Until now I'm >> >> > > > > waiting >> >> > > > for >> >> > > > > an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude doesn't >> >> > > > > surprise >> >> > > > me >> >> > > > > at all. >> >> > > > > It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in this >> >> > > > > kind of >> >> > > > > medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the Wikimedia >> >> > > Movement. >> >> > > > > Matter for Roles & Reponsibilities. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Best, >> >> > > > > Paulo >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminik...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia terça, >> >> > > > 11/06/2019 >> >> > > > > à(s) 05:45: >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > Thanks for this. >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the >> >> > > > > > unilateralism >> >> > > and >> >> > > > > > lack of transparency. >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224 >> >> > > > > > <techman...@techman224.ca> >> >> > > > > wrote: >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively dead. >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated that >> >> > > > > > > they >> >> > > > > weren't >> >> > > > > > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom >> >> > > > > > forwarding a >> >> > > > > > concern to the office. [1] >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that "local >> >> > > > > > communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own >> >> > > > autonomous >> >> > > > > > rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no >> >> > > complaints >> >> > > > > > on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately. >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the Bureaucrats and >> >> > > > > > > the >> >> > > > > Arbcom >> >> > > > > > noticeboards. >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office >> >> > > > > > < >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Request_for_ArbCom_to_comment_publicly_on_Fram's_ban >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > [1] >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 >> >> > > > > > < >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > [2] >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statement_from_the_WMF_Trust_&_Safety_Team >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > Techman224 >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> From: George Herbert <george.herb...@gmail.com> >> >> > > > > > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block >> >> > > > > > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT >> >> > > > > > >> To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> >> >> > > > > > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office S&T blocked >> >> > > > > > >> English >> >> > > > > > Wikipedia >> >> > > > > > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped, for >> >> > > unspecified >> >> > > > > > >> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief statement >> >> > > > > > >> here >> >> > > > from >> >> > > > > > >> Office regarding it which gave no details other than that >> >> > > > > > >> normal >> >> > > > > policy >> >> > > > > > and >> >> > > > > > >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which under >> >> > > > > > >> normal >> >> > > > > > >> circumstances preclude public comments. >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented they're >> >> > > > > > >> making >> >> > > > > private >> >> > > > > > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication channels, >> >> > > > > > >> due >> >> > > to >> >> > > > > the >> >> > > > > > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action. >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed IMHO >> >> > > > > > >> into >> >> > > > "Ok, >> >> > > > > > >> responsible people following up". >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics under >> >> > > > > > >> Office >> >> > > > > actions, >> >> > > > > > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private stuff >> >> > > myself >> >> > > > at >> >> > > > > > >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target is >> >> > > > > > >> most >> >> > > > > unusual >> >> > > > > > but >> >> > > > > > >> not unheard of. >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they had any >> >> > > public >> >> > > > > > >> comment, no reply as yet. >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > > > >> -- >> >> > > > > > >> -george william herbert >> >> > > > > > >> george.herb...@gmail.com >> >> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > > > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list >> >> > > > > > >> wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org >> >> > > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: >> >> > > > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >> >> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> >> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> >> > > > > > 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