On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 12:07 PM Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Robert, > > These two aren't mutually exclusive. Yes, Wikipedia belongs to everyone. > Specifically, a place in the community of Wikipedia editors is open to anyone > who would like to join. Those of us here have already done that. But it is > natural in any community or organization to give more weight to respected, > long-term members than those who just joined up yesterday. They've learned > the ropes and demonstrated a commitment to it. > > However, the project categorically does not belong to the WMF. The WMF exists > to serve and assist Wikimedia projects, not lord it over and rule them. And > since "Wikipedia belongs to everyone", we certainly shouldn't be throwing > people out in secret Star Chamber-style proceedings, where apparently even > the accused is not permitted to know all the evidence against them. That is > utterly antithetical to the open, community-run ethos of the project. > > Todd > > On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 8:09 AM Robert Fernandez <wikigamal...@gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and find >> > that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. >> >> This is part of the problem right here. This isn't our project and we >> shouldn't be trying to exclude people from our community. Wikipedia >> belongs to everyone. >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 9:53 AM Peter Southwood >> <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: >> > >> > Thrapostibongles, >> > I am not familiar with your name on enwiki, so I looked you up, and find >> > that you have a grand total of 11 edits on all projects since 2015. >> > While it is possible that you have a long and distinguished edit history >> > under a previous name or as an IP editor, it leads me to wonder just how >> > familiar you are with the customs and culture of enwiki, which I freely >> > agree are non-optimal, but have evolved to sort of work in an environment >> > which was predicted to be impossible. Yet here we are, dysfunctionally >> > surviving when we are theoretically long extinct. Our dysfunctional mores >> > function as they do and evolve through surviving and occasional >> > modification by consensus of those who care enough to take part in the >> > process, within the environment in which we work. We are somewhere between >> > an anarchy and a community, and we do not generally appreciate >> > pontification from outsiders, which is what you appear to be, and to a >> > large extent, what we consider WMF to be. It is a problem. If WMF chooses >> > to rule by fiat it will have interesting consequences. So far they have >> > mostly avoided that, and when they have it has not ended well. If you >> > consider yourself an expert in something relevant I invite you to show >> > evidence of your credentials. Otherwise we will take your comments as we >> > do those of any other unproven internet commentator. >> > This is just my personal take, I do not presume to represent anyone else. >> > You are as free to ignore me as I am to ignore you, but engaging in this >> > discussion has its consequences, and one of them is to be questioned. >> > Cheers, >> > Peter Southwood >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On >> > Behalf Of Mister Thrapostibongles >> > Sent: 12 June 2019 09:06 >> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List >> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block >> > >> > Yaroslav, >> > >> > I think it's reasonably clear that the English Wikipedia community and its >> > community structures, such as its Arbitration Committee, and processes are >> > not capable of maintaining a productive, harassment-free environment for >> > the volunteer workers. For example, they have consistently failed, after >> > several attempts, to handle the case of a volunteer who used the word >> > "Cxxx" about a fellow worker, and the community has agreed that telling >> > others to "Fxxx off" is acceptable. These are symptoms of a dysfunctional >> > community, which tolerates behaviour that is unacceptable in any collegial >> > working environment, and it is right that the Foundation should step in. >> > >> > Thrapostibongles >> > >> > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 4:56 PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > > The point made by pretty much everyone is not that Fram should or should >> > > not be banned, but that the process in this case should have followed the >> > > standard dispute resolution avenues, More specifically, the case should >> > > have been communicated to the Arbitration Committee, whose members did >> > > sign >> > > the non-disclosure agreement. >> > > >> > > This is different from the past cases when users were banned by WMF, >> > > since >> > > in this case it was made clear the case is based on on-wiki open activity >> > > of Fram (and, specifically, only on the English Wikipedia). The on-wiki >> > > activity is subject to the community policies. >> > > >> > > To be clear, I am not a friend of Fram, and in the past supported desysop >> > > on a number of occasions. >> > > >> > > Cheers >> > > Yaroslav >> > > >> > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 5:46 PM Amir Sarabadani <ladsgr...@gmail.com> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > People who oppose the ban: Are you aware of all aspects and things Fram >> > > has >> > > > done? Do you have the full picture? It's really saddening to see how >> > > > fast >> > > > people jump to conclusion in page mentioned in the email. I personally, >> > > > don't know what happened so I neither can support or oppose the ban. As >> > > > simple as that. >> > > > >> > > > So what should be done IMO. If enwiki wants to know more, a community >> > > body >> > > > can ask for more information, if body satisfy two things: >> > > > - They had signed NDA not to disclose the case >> > > > - They are trusted by the community >> > > > >> > > > I think the only body can sorta work with this is stewards but not sure >> > > > (Does ArbCom NDA'ed?) >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 3:58 PM Paulo Santos Perneta < >> > > > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Lack of transparency from the WMF, whatelse is new. >> > > > > I'm currently under a funding ban secretly decided (by who?) based >> > > > > on a >> > > > > false accusation, without providing any evidence. Until now I'm >> > > > > waiting >> > > > for >> > > > > an explanation from the WMF. So, this sort of attitude doesn't >> > > > > surprise >> > > > me >> > > > > at all. >> > > > > It is very unfortunate that the WMF apparently thrives in this kind >> > > > > of >> > > > > medieval obscurity, the opposite of the values of the Wikimedia >> > > Movement. >> > > > > Matter for Roles & Reponsibilities. >> > > > > >> > > > > Best, >> > > > > Paulo >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminik...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia terça, >> > > > 11/06/2019 >> > > > > à(s) 05:45: >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Thanks for this. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I'm glad to see I'm not the only one dismayed by the unilateralism >> > > and >> > > > > > lack of transparency. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Jun 10, 2019, at 8:25 PM, Techman224 <techman...@techman224.ca> >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Forwarding to WIkimedia-l since WikiEN-l is relatively dead. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Since this message, an Arbcom member (SilkTork) stated that they >> > > > > weren't >> > > > > > consulted, nor did this action was the result of Arbcom forwarding >> > > > > > a >> > > > > > concern to the office. [1] >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The only non-response excuse from the WMF [2] was that "local >> > > > > > communities consistently struggle to uphold not just their own >> > > > autonomous >> > > > > > rules but the Terms of Use, too.” even though there were no >> > > complaints >> > > > > > on-wiki nor to Arbcom privately. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The on-wiki discussion is taking place at the Bureaucrats and the >> > > > > Arbcom >> > > > > > noticeboards. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office >> > > > > > < >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats'_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard#Request_for_ArbCom_to_comment_publicly_on_Fram's_ban >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > [1] >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 >> > > > > > < >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=901300528 >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > [2] >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#Statement_from_the_WMF_Trust_&_Safety_Team >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Techman224 >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Begin forwarded message: >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> From: George Herbert <george.herb...@gmail.com> >> > > > > > >> Subject: [WikiEN-l] Fram en.wp office yearlock block >> > > > > > >> Date: June 10, 2019 at 8:54:34 PM CDT >> > > > > > >> To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> >> > > > > > >> Reply-To: English Wikipedia <wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> In case you're not following on-wiki - Office S&T blocked >> > > > > > >> English >> > > > > > Wikipedia >> > > > > > >> user / administrator Fram for a year and desysopped, for >> > > unspecified >> > > > > > >> reasons in the Office purview. There was a brief statement here >> > > > from >> > > > > > >> Office regarding it which gave no details other than that normal >> > > > > policy >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > >> procedures for Office actions were followed, which under normal >> > > > > > >> circumstances preclude public comments. >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bureaucrats%27_noticeboard#User:Fram_banned_for_1_year_by_WMF_office >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> Several people on Arbcom and board have commented they're making >> > > > > private >> > > > > > >> inquiries under normal reporting and communication channels, due >> > > to >> > > > > the >> > > > > > >> oddity and essentially uniqueness of the action. >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> There was an initial surge of dismay which has mellowed IMHO >> > > > > > >> into >> > > > "Ok, >> > > > > > >> responsible people following up". >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> I understand the sensitivity of some of the topics under Office >> > > > > actions, >> > > > > > >> having done OTRS and other various had-to-stay-private stuff >> > > myself >> > > > at >> > > > > > >> times in the past. A high profile investigation target is most >> > > > > unusual >> > > > > > but >> > > > > > >> not unheard of. >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> I did send email to Fram earlier today asking if they had any >> > > public >> > > > > > >> comment, no reply as yet. >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> -- >> > > > > > >> -george william herbert >> > > > > > >> george.herb...@gmail.com >> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> > > > > > >> WikiEN-l mailing list >> > > > > > >> wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org >> > > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: >> > > > > > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > > > > > > Unsubscribe: >> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > > > > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > > > > > Unsubscribe: >> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > > > > Unsubscribe: >> > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > Amir (he/him) >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> > >> > --- >> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. >> > https://www.avg.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
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