If things are as bad as that then there should be and might already be an offshore backup, possibly more than one, as it is a no-brainer, and I donโt think WMF tech management and the board are stupid, and nor are those who would wish to prevent it from happening. But plausible deniability. Cheers, Peter
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Christophe Henner Sent: 30 September 2020 23:07 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Moving the technical infrastructure out of the US Hi everyone, Options to mitigate any risks are numerous, especially when it comes to content distribution (private/semi-private/public/delegated/federated/a mix of everything) but given the current context I would restrain from having this as a public / community discussion. We, community members, would most probably have great inputs but when one is dealing with this kind of topic, designing contingencies plan, one has to be ful of what information can be public. I have no idea whether staff is working on such a topic, and it is better that way. But we, as community members and awesome human beings, must be mindful of some things: - The people in charge of that topic are mostly US Citizens. The current political and social climate is most probably draining their energy. Imagine having to manage it both from a personal and professional standpoint. Top that doing it for something as important as our projects. We cannot fathom their anxiety levels and should not add any to it. - Sending email about this topic, they have to read it. They most probably have to discuss, debate and balance whether they should answer or not. Imagine adding that to the first point. - They know for a fact, remember a lot of community members are staff, that community could be helping. But they can't ask for it. - Top all of that with them knowing that whatever course of action they might pick, it comes with a toll. Whether it is to talk about it here, and perhaps hinder their efforts, or not talk about it here and be perceived as ignoring the community. - Top all of that with the stress of trying to do their job in a global pandemic situation that might have them with loved ones at risk. Or with the need to care daily for young / elderly people. - Top that with the fact that they most probably all have relatives that at best are in financial struggle, or health struggles or are managing with the loss of loved ones. Take a pause. Try to step in that space. Imagine how you would feel. Multiply that by a hundred. I would recommend we (community members) restrain from talking about it. Perhaps what could be helpful, I am saying could, is for the people that do actually have knowledge on those topics to just say they are available to help if needs be with your area of expertise. If no one at the Foundation acknowledges this thread or your emails, it is ok. It doesn't mean you are not valued, it means that you are being spared from that weight. We can provide support, but we should be mindful not to increase their current level of stress. Please all take care of yourselves, loved ones and each other PS: I said staff, but read it as "anyone with an official Wikimedia Foundation capacity". I know for a fact how those situations can be hard to manage when you are a volunteer board member in the shadow too. -- Christophe On Wed, 30 Sep 2020 at 21:32, Steven Walling <steven.wall...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 12:22 PM Nathan <nawr...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Well, to Steven's point that you might need a jurisdiction where > corporate > > officers and employees aren't subject to extradition... I believe Germany > > does in fact have an extradition treaty with the United States. > > > > The chapters do seem like the obvious potentially viable easy > solution here, if WMF set up that contingency plan. > > For instance, if WMDE did take over in an emergency, then the critical > difference is that Germany doesn't extradite its own citizens to the US. So > there'd just have to be a complete handoff of primary hosting to outside > the US and some kind of agreement for WMDE (or pick your chapter) to take > over operational control. There's probably a lot that real lawyers, of > which I am not one, would know better here. > > > > So far the criteria I'm hearing from the comments here: > > > > 1) Politically stable > > 2) Liberal political environment > > 3) Strong protections against government interference in relevant > > operations > > 4) Section 230-like protection against liability for user content > > 5) No natural disasters like fires, floods, hurricanes, volcanoes, etc. > > 6) Strong technological sophistication - preferably a robust technology > > industry that can supply local talent for WMF needs > > 7) Protections in the law for data privacy > > 8) Availability of renewable energy sources and other resources that > allow > > for operation of the WMF with a low climate impact > > 9) Tax exemption or beneficial tax structure for receiving international > > fundings by donation > > 10) Clear and reliable regulatory framework for a charitable organization > > 11) Safe - low crime, low-risk of violence for WMF stakeholders and > > community > > 12) Free from risk of extradition to the U.S. or other jurisdictions > where > > criminal or civil law might be used against WMF officers or employees > > > > I would guess the list of countries that meet all of these criteria might > > be short. Norway might hit most of these except the last. > > > > The only item that seems more or less impossible is preventing 5 in light > of the impacts of climate change. There is no locale on the planet that > won't suffer from severe weather and natural disasters, just some (like the > poorer countries and anywhere in the tropics) that will see worse impacts. > So the only nuance is aiming for more like "Prepared for the event of > severe weather and natural disasters" not "none". > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 2:44 PM Michael Peel <em...@mikepeel.net> wrote: > > > > > โฆ hence the existence of Wikimedia chapters? I suspect at least WMDE > > could > > > take this on if it becomes necessary, although other chapters arenโt as > > > technologically developed as Iโd have liked to have seen. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Mike > > > > > > > On 30 Sep 2020, at 19:35, Steven Walling <steven.wall...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > SJ hinted at a related problem which is that we'd also need a backup > > > > organizational structure to run things operationally and legally. If > > the > > > US > > > > becomes so politically unstable that hosting Wikimedia data is under > > > threat > > > > there, just moving the data would not be enough. You'd also have to > > > include > > > > a contingency plan that foresaw the need to legally operate the > > > Foundation > > > > (or an equivalent organization anyway) under a different jurisdiction > > > > with corporate officers not subject to US law or extradition. If the > > > > servers are hosted in the EU but the legally controlling body and its > > > > employees are within the US, you could still see them legally forced > to > > > > comply with an order, just like companies are forced to do so in > > > > other countries with censorious regimes today. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 8:59 AM Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> We should have technical partners in multiple other jurisdictions > that > > > >> could help in a crisis, and load bearing infrastructure in at least > > one > > > of > > > >> them, and a plan for how and when to switch. (The walkthrough of > what > > > would > > > >> be needed for a smooth transfer send most important, and useful for > > > general > > > >> reliability planning) > > > >> > > > >> We should also fully support and realize Wikimedia-on-ipfs, similar > to > > > what > > > >> the internet archive had been doing. (Santhosh has some excellent > > ideas > > > >> there) > > > >> > > > >> ๐๐๐๐ > > > >> > > > >> On Wed., Sep. 30, 2020, 5:35 a.m. Dan Garry (Deskana), < > > > djgw...@gmail.com> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> On Wed, 30 Sep 2020 at 09:49, Erik Moeller <eloque...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> I hope that some preliminary contingency plans exist or are being > > > >>>> developed, and I'm sure that the movement-wide debate will widen > if > > > >>>> the US continues its downward slide into authoritarianism. > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> I agree with Erik. Even under the Obama administration, there were > > > >> threats > > > >>> to the existence of the movement, such as SOPA [1] which lead to a > > > >> blackout > > > >>> [2]. One can extrapolate from current events that these threats > could > > > >> well > > > >>> get larger and more frequent, rather than smaller and less > frequent, > > > >> should > > > >>> someone in the US Government decide to focus their attention on > > > attacking > > > >>> Wikipedia and free knowledge. It would be prudent to create a > > > contingency > > > >>> plan which includes an exploration of other options for a location > of > > > >>> operation for the Wikimedia Foundation and/or its servers, with > their > > > >>> advantages and disadvantages. I personally wouldn't necessarily > > > advocate > > > >>> for making the plan public; that would be ideal, but I'd be > comforted > > > >>> merely to know it exists. > > > >>> > > > >>> On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 at 23:36, Joseph Seddon < > josephsed...@gmail.com> > > > >>> wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> I believe options are going to be explored for sustainability but > > > right > > > >>> now > > > >>>> legally speaking the US is the best jurisdiction for hosting us > now > > > and > > > >>> the > > > >>>> foreseeable future. > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> I agree with this too. For now, the United States remains the best > > > place > > > >>> for the organisation to operate out of, and a move should not be > > > actively > > > >>> considered. > > > >>> > > > >>> Dan > > > >>> > > > >>> [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act > > > >>> [2]: > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_SOPA_and_PIPA#Wikimedia_community > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > >>> Unsubscribe: > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > >>> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > >> Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > > , > > > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
