Hi Scott, folks,

Is it problematic to pass a gov url (for eg) through The Way Back Machine
to get an Archive link and use that? I know it means we rely on Archive.org
(since 1996) and I wish we had something as reliable here..

Leigh

On 21 Jan 2018 16:25, "Scott Davis" <sbda...@internode.on.net> wrote:

> Agreed, I would happily use the Trove catalogue URL if the full text was
> linked from it, but it is harder if (as this example) the full text is
> available somewhere else. A reason to still use the catalogue entry as the
> primary URL is that it will likely persist longer than a URL provided by a
> publisher or other party. e.g. Next time the NSW government restructures
> its departments and agencies, that URL is likely to break.
>
> On the wider issue, another reason I have tried to insert two URLs in a
> cite template and failed was when I wanted to reference data from a
> spreadsheet - the downloaded spreadsheet has a date in the URL, I wanted to
> link to *exactly *where I got the information, but also to the parent
> page that contains the link that shows if there is a later edition. I ended
> up only using the latter link, I think.
>
> Scott
>
> On 20/01/2018 6:45 PM, Leigh Blackall wrote:
>
> Nice workflow Kerry, I'll do that in future also.
>
> On 20 Jan 2018 16:46, "Gnangarra" <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> agree with Kerry here the Trove link is more significant and proves more
> information.  The Trove URL does take a person to the text, its a
> maintained link where as many third party sites change their urls all to
> frequently, as is currently the case in WA with 40 odd departments being
> merged into less than 20 we can expect large swaths of WA Government urls
> to break over the next 12-18 months.
>
> Trove url may not fit perfectly to letter of en.wp policy but en.wp policy
> does also say  *"If a rule
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines> prevents
> you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia>, ignore it."*
>
> This is one of those occasions where WP:IAR is the perfect fit,
>
>
>
>
> On 20 January 2018 at 13:25, Kerry Raymond <kerry.raym...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> There’s 2 angles to this, the Trove angle and the WIkipedia angle.
>>
>> On the Wikipedia side, part of the problem is that it would be nice to be
>> able to have a cite book/journal way to cite both the full text *and* the
>> catalogue/metadata entry (that is, two fields for different purposes. I
>> have previously mentioned this somewhere on Wikipedia and basically got
>> told that there was never a need for the catalogue URL so I was stupid for
>> even asking. However if you look at it from a library perspective, then
>> there are multiple reasons for having a URL to the catalogue entry. Firstly
>> catalogue entries often contain information not easily discerned from the
>> actual book text (or not in the book text at all) and Book text rarely
>> links you back to the catalogue entry. A concrete example of this that
>> matters to Wikipedians is this: if I just get a link to the digitised work,
>> how do I know if this work is still subject to copyright or not (eg author
>> dead 70+ years). The Trove catalogue shows author death dates and has the
>> check copyright button. Also, if a Library has gone to the effort of
>> digitizing it and has decided to make it freely available online, then
>> what’s in it for them? Not a lot, but at least if you come via the
>> catalogue entry, you know (and hopefully appreciate) the Library for doing
>> so. Also some libraries do not store rendered forms of the full text but
>> generate them from some other representation on the request (saves on
>> storage). If you see an expiry date in a URL parameter, that may be the
>> reason as they will only hold it in the rendered form for a day/week/month
>> in which case the URL is not persistent.
>>
>> So in the pragmatic reality of writing a citation for Trove where there
>> is online full text available, I do as follows.
>>
>> If the online version is available via a link in the Trove catalogue
>> entry, the I just use the Trove catalogue URL (as generated by Trove), as
>> it gives you both the catalogue entry and for an extra click or two the
>> full text. (Yeah, it’s not the intended use of the URL field but it works
>> and if the template writers won’t give me 2 URL fields, then I see this as
>> their problem not mine).
>>
>> If the online version is not available via Trove, then sometimes I use
>> the Trove citation and replace the URL field with the URL to the full text.
>> I usually do this whenever there isn’t much interesting info in the Trove
>> catalogue entry.
>>
>> Otherwise I just use the Trove citation and follow it with — full text
>> available [fulltexturl online]
>>
>> Remember you can always put more that just a cite template inside a <ref>
>> </ref> pair.
>>
>> Another gripe about the cite template family is that you cannot include
>> licensing information. I would love to be able to note that a source is PD
>> or CC-whatever. But again I have asked and told that readers have no need
>> for such information, which I think is batshit crazy. If we believe in free
>> knowledge, surely we should want to draw attention to sources that are more
>> open than plain old copyright.
>>
>> Kerry
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 20 Jan 2018, at 9:56 am, Leigh Blackall <leighblack...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Seems reasonable to me, but if it's proving difficult to get Trove to
>> update their citation formatting, then best to at least demonstrate it on
>> the Wikipedia et al side of things. Is it possible to create a bot that
>> goes back through all Trove references, check the URL and add the
>> catelogue? Or to seamlessly add a template that asks editors to add the
>> catelogue number, and url to available text, and maybe Wayback machine
>> record of that url...
>>
>> On 20 Jan 2018 10:35, "Liam Wyatt" <liamwy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There's quite a long list of improvements that could be made to the
>>> Wikipedia footnote format that Trove produces automatically. Many of them
>>> are already logged in their internal code-review system at the National
>>> Library but, due to internal prioritisation of the bug/feature queue this
>>> doesn't get very high on the list unfortunately. Originally that system was
>>> also only enabled on the digitised newspapers but, eventually propagated
>>> out to other areas of the service too where it's less applicable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 January 2018 at 23:50, Peter Jeremy <pe...@rulingia.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've been looking at fixing up some citations I wrote many years ago
>>>> since
>>>> I've found that the text of the book I referenced is now available
>>>> online as
>>>> well as having a Trove reference.  Trove provides a Wikipedia citation
>>>> of
>>>> the form:
>>>> {{Citation | author1=Aird, W. V | author2=Aird, W V | author3=New South
>>>> Wales. Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board | title=The water
>>>> supply, sewerage, and drainage of Sydney | publication-date=1961 |
>>>> publisher=[Metropolitan Water Sewerage and Drainage Board] | url=
>>>> https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/21676846 | accessdate=20 January 2018 }}
>>>>
>>>> IMHO, the "url=https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/21676846"; is inappropriate
>>>> since https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_book says that url=
>>>> is
>>>> "URL of an online location where the text of the publication can be
>>>> found"
>>>> whereas the Trove link is a catalogue record.  I think a better Trove
>>>> link
>>>> would be something like id={{Trove|21676846}} but I am unable to find
>>>> any
>>>> suitable template.  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki
>>>> /Template:Trove_newspaper
>>>> is specifically for newspapers).
>>>>
>>>> Would it be reasonable to create a Template:Trove that accepted a Trove
>>>> identifier and created a work identifier?  (If that was done, ideally
>>>> the
>>>> Trave citation format would change to suit but that's a separate issue).
>>>>
>>>> (And, in this particular case, the actual text is online at
>>>> ttps://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/do
>>>> cuments/document/zgrf/mdq0/~edisp/dd_044331.pdf
>>>> <http://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdq0/%7Eedisp/dd_044331.pdf>
>>>> so I'd like to be have a that link and a trove reference).
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Peter Jeremy
>>>>
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