Hi Scott, folks, Is it problematic to pass a gov url (for eg) through The Way Back Machine to get an Archive link and use that? I know it means we rely on Archive.org (since 1996) and I wish we had something as reliable here..
Leigh On 21 Jan 2018 16:25, "Scott Davis" <[email protected]> wrote: > Agreed, I would happily use the Trove catalogue URL if the full text was > linked from it, but it is harder if (as this example) the full text is > available somewhere else. A reason to still use the catalogue entry as the > primary URL is that it will likely persist longer than a URL provided by a > publisher or other party. e.g. Next time the NSW government restructures > its departments and agencies, that URL is likely to break. > > On the wider issue, another reason I have tried to insert two URLs in a > cite template and failed was when I wanted to reference data from a > spreadsheet - the downloaded spreadsheet has a date in the URL, I wanted to > link to *exactly *where I got the information, but also to the parent > page that contains the link that shows if there is a later edition. I ended > up only using the latter link, I think. > > Scott > > On 20/01/2018 6:45 PM, Leigh Blackall wrote: > > Nice workflow Kerry, I'll do that in future also. > > On 20 Jan 2018 16:46, "Gnangarra" <[email protected]> wrote: > > agree with Kerry here the Trove link is more significant and proves more > information. The Trove URL does take a person to the text, its a > maintained link where as many third party sites change their urls all to > frequently, as is currently the case in WA with 40 odd departments being > merged into less than 20 we can expect large swaths of WA Government urls > to break over the next 12-18 months. > > Trove url may not fit perfectly to letter of en.wp policy but en.wp policy > does also say *"If a rule > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines> prevents > you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia>, ignore it."* > > This is one of those occasions where WP:IAR is the perfect fit, > > > > > On 20 January 2018 at 13:25, Kerry Raymond <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> There’s 2 angles to this, the Trove angle and the WIkipedia angle. >> >> On the Wikipedia side, part of the problem is that it would be nice to be >> able to have a cite book/journal way to cite both the full text *and* the >> catalogue/metadata entry (that is, two fields for different purposes. I >> have previously mentioned this somewhere on Wikipedia and basically got >> told that there was never a need for the catalogue URL so I was stupid for >> even asking. However if you look at it from a library perspective, then >> there are multiple reasons for having a URL to the catalogue entry. Firstly >> catalogue entries often contain information not easily discerned from the >> actual book text (or not in the book text at all) and Book text rarely >> links you back to the catalogue entry. A concrete example of this that >> matters to Wikipedians is this: if I just get a link to the digitised work, >> how do I know if this work is still subject to copyright or not (eg author >> dead 70+ years). The Trove catalogue shows author death dates and has the >> check copyright button. Also, if a Library has gone to the effort of >> digitizing it and has decided to make it freely available online, then >> what’s in it for them? Not a lot, but at least if you come via the >> catalogue entry, you know (and hopefully appreciate) the Library for doing >> so. Also some libraries do not store rendered forms of the full text but >> generate them from some other representation on the request (saves on >> storage). If you see an expiry date in a URL parameter, that may be the >> reason as they will only hold it in the rendered form for a day/week/month >> in which case the URL is not persistent. >> >> So in the pragmatic reality of writing a citation for Trove where there >> is online full text available, I do as follows. >> >> If the online version is available via a link in the Trove catalogue >> entry, the I just use the Trove catalogue URL (as generated by Trove), as >> it gives you both the catalogue entry and for an extra click or two the >> full text. (Yeah, it’s not the intended use of the URL field but it works >> and if the template writers won’t give me 2 URL fields, then I see this as >> their problem not mine). >> >> If the online version is not available via Trove, then sometimes I use >> the Trove citation and replace the URL field with the URL to the full text. >> I usually do this whenever there isn’t much interesting info in the Trove >> catalogue entry. >> >> Otherwise I just use the Trove citation and follow it with — full text >> available [fulltexturl online] >> >> Remember you can always put more that just a cite template inside a <ref> >> </ref> pair. >> >> Another gripe about the cite template family is that you cannot include >> licensing information. I would love to be able to note that a source is PD >> or CC-whatever. But again I have asked and told that readers have no need >> for such information, which I think is batshit crazy. If we believe in free >> knowledge, surely we should want to draw attention to sources that are more >> open than plain old copyright. >> >> Kerry >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 20 Jan 2018, at 9:56 am, Leigh Blackall <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Seems reasonable to me, but if it's proving difficult to get Trove to >> update their citation formatting, then best to at least demonstrate it on >> the Wikipedia et al side of things. Is it possible to create a bot that >> goes back through all Trove references, check the URL and add the >> catelogue? Or to seamlessly add a template that asks editors to add the >> catelogue number, and url to available text, and maybe Wayback machine >> record of that url... >> >> On 20 Jan 2018 10:35, "Liam Wyatt" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> There's quite a long list of improvements that could be made to the >>> Wikipedia footnote format that Trove produces automatically. Many of them >>> are already logged in their internal code-review system at the National >>> Library but, due to internal prioritisation of the bug/feature queue this >>> doesn't get very high on the list unfortunately. Originally that system was >>> also only enabled on the digitised newspapers but, eventually propagated >>> out to other areas of the service too where it's less applicable. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 19 January 2018 at 23:50, Peter Jeremy <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I've been looking at fixing up some citations I wrote many years ago >>>> since >>>> I've found that the text of the book I referenced is now available >>>> online as >>>> well as having a Trove reference. Trove provides a Wikipedia citation >>>> of >>>> the form: >>>> {{Citation | author1=Aird, W. V | author2=Aird, W V | author3=New South >>>> Wales. Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board | title=The water >>>> supply, sewerage, and drainage of Sydney | publication-date=1961 | >>>> publisher=[Metropolitan Water Sewerage and Drainage Board] | url= >>>> https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/21676846 | accessdate=20 January 2018 }} >>>> >>>> IMHO, the "url=https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/21676846"; is inappropriate >>>> since https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_book says that url= >>>> is >>>> "URL of an online location where the text of the publication can be >>>> found" >>>> whereas the Trove link is a catalogue record. I think a better Trove >>>> link >>>> would be something like id={{Trove|21676846}} but I am unable to find >>>> any >>>> suitable template. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki >>>> /Template:Trove_newspaper >>>> is specifically for newspapers). >>>> >>>> Would it be reasonable to create a Template:Trove that accepted a Trove >>>> identifier and created a work identifier? (If that was done, ideally >>>> the >>>> Trave citation format would change to suit but that's a separate issue). >>>> >>>> (And, in this particular case, the actual text is online at >>>> ttps://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/do >>>> cuments/document/zgrf/mdq0/~edisp/dd_044331.pdf >>>> <http://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdq0/%7Eedisp/dd_044331.pdf> >>>> so I'd like to be have a that link and a trove reference). >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Peter Jeremy >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimediaau-l mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wikimediaau-l mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaau-l mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimediaau-l mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l >> >> > > > -- > GN. > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: > Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order > here > <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8> > . > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaau-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaau-l mailing > [email protected]https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaau-l mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l > >
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