I pre-emptively archive many URLs (government or not) that I feel are important as citations for a Wikipedia article and are likely to be “at risk” of becoming deadlinks.
The Internet Archive won’t archive some URLs if their robots.txt file does not allow it so I just ask the Wayback Machine to save it and, if it can, I add the archiveurl to the citation. Kerry From: Wikimediaau-l [mailto:wikimediaau-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Leigh Blackall Sent: Monday, 22 January 2018 9:19 AM To: Australian Wikimedians mailing list <wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org> Subject: Re: [Wikimediaau-l] Referencing NLA Trove in WP citations Hi Scott, folks, Is it problematic to pass a gov url (for eg) through The Way Back Machine to get an Archive link and use that? I know it means we rely on Archive.org (since 1996) and I wish we had something as reliable here.. Leigh On 21 Jan 2018 16:25, "Scott Davis" <sbda...@internode.on.net <mailto:sbda...@internode.on.net> > wrote: Agreed, I would happily use the Trove catalogue URL if the full text was linked from it, but it is harder if (as this example) the full text is available somewhere else. A reason to still use the catalogue entry as the primary URL is that it will likely persist longer than a URL provided by a publisher or other party. e.g. Next time the NSW government restructures its departments and agencies, that URL is likely to break. On the wider issue, another reason I have tried to insert two URLs in a cite template and failed was when I wanted to reference data from a spreadsheet - the downloaded spreadsheet has a date in the URL, I wanted to link to exactly where I got the information, but also to the parent page that contains the link that shows if there is a later edition. I ended up only using the latter link, I think. Scott On 20/01/2018 6:45 PM, Leigh Blackall wrote: Nice workflow Kerry, I'll do that in future also. On 20 Jan 2018 16:46, "Gnangarra" <gnanga...@gmail.com <mailto:gnanga...@gmail.com> > wrote: agree with Kerry here the Trove link is more significant and proves more information. The Trove URL does take a person to the text, its a maintained link where as many third party sites change their urls all to frequently, as is currently the case in WA with 40 odd departments being merged into less than 20 we can expect large swaths of WA Government urls to break over the next 12-18 months. Trove url may not fit perfectly to letter of en.wp policy but en.wp policy does also say "If a <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines> rule prevents you from improving or maintaining <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia> Wikipedia, ignore it." This is one of those occasions where WP:IAR is the perfect fit, On 20 January 2018 at 13:25, Kerry Raymond <kerry.raym...@gmail.com <mailto:kerry.raym...@gmail.com> > wrote: There’s 2 angles to this, the Trove angle and the WIkipedia angle. On the Wikipedia side, part of the problem is that it would be nice to be able to have a cite book/journal way to cite both the full text *and* the catalogue/metadata entry (that is, two fields for different purposes. I have previously mentioned this somewhere on Wikipedia and basically got told that there was never a need for the catalogue URL so I was stupid for even asking. However if you look at it from a library perspective, then there are multiple reasons for having a URL to the catalogue entry. Firstly catalogue entries often contain information not easily discerned from the actual book text (or not in the book text at all) and Book text rarely links you back to the catalogue entry. A concrete example of this that matters to Wikipedians is this: if I just get a link to the digitised work, how do I know if this work is still subject to copyright or not (eg author dead 70+ years). The Trove catalogue shows author death dates and has the check copyright button. Also, if a Library has gone to the effort of digitizing it and has decided to make it freely available online, then what’s in it for them? Not a lot, but at least if you come via the catalogue entry, you know (and hopefully appreciate) the Library for doing so. Also some libraries do not store rendered forms of the full text but generate them from some other representation on the request (saves on storage). If you see an expiry date in a URL parameter, that may be the reason as they will only hold it in the rendered form for a day/week/month in which case the URL is not persistent. So in the pragmatic reality of writing a citation for Trove where there is online full text available, I do as follows. If the online version is available via a link in the Trove catalogue entry, the I just use the Trove catalogue URL (as generated by Trove), as it gives you both the catalogue entry and for an extra click or two the full text. (Yeah, it’s not the intended use of the URL field but it works and if the template writers won’t give me 2 URL fields, then I see this as their problem not mine). If the online version is not available via Trove, then sometimes I use the Trove citation and replace the URL field with the URL to the full text. I usually do this whenever there isn’t much interesting info in the Trove catalogue entry. Otherwise I just use the Trove citation and follow it with — full text available [fulltexturl online] Remember you can always put more that just a cite template inside a <ref> </ref> pair. Another gripe about the cite template family is that you cannot include licensing information. I would love to be able to note that a source is PD or CC-whatever. But again I have asked and told that readers have no need for such information, which I think is batshit crazy. If we believe in free knowledge, surely we should want to draw attention to sources that are more open than plain old copyright. Kerry Sent from my iPad On 20 Jan 2018, at 9:56 am, Leigh Blackall <leighblack...@gmail.com <mailto:leighblack...@gmail.com> > wrote: Seems reasonable to me, but if it's proving difficult to get Trove to update their citation formatting, then best to at least demonstrate it on the Wikipedia et al side of things. Is it possible to create a bot that goes back through all Trove references, check the URL and add the catelogue? Or to seamlessly add a template that asks editors to add the catelogue number, and url to available text, and maybe Wayback machine record of that url... On 20 Jan 2018 10:35, "Liam Wyatt" <liamwy...@gmail.com <mailto:liamwy...@gmail.com> > wrote: There's quite a long list of improvements that could be made to the Wikipedia footnote format that Trove produces automatically. Many of them are already logged in their internal code-review system at the National Library but, due to internal prioritisation of the bug/feature queue this doesn't get very high on the list unfortunately. Originally that system was also only enabled on the digitised newspapers but, eventually propagated out to other areas of the service too where it's less applicable. On 19 January 2018 at 23:50, Peter Jeremy <pe...@rulingia.com <mailto:pe...@rulingia.com> > wrote: I've been looking at fixing up some citations I wrote many years ago since I've found that the text of the book I referenced is now available online as well as having a Trove reference. Trove provides a Wikipedia citation of the form: {{Citation | author1=Aird, W. V | author2=Aird, W V | author3=New South Wales. Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Board | title=The water supply, sewerage, and drainage of Sydney | publication-date=1961 | publisher=[Metropolitan Water Sewerage and Drainage Board] | url=https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/21676846 | accessdate=20 January 2018 }} IMHO, the "url=https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/21676846"; is inappropriate since https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Cite_book says that url= is "URL of an online location where the text of the publication can be found" whereas the Trove link is a catalogue record. I think a better Trove link would be something like id={{Trove|21676846}} but I am unable to find any suitable template. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Trove_newspaper is specifically for newspapers). Would it be reasonable to create a Template:Trove that accepted a Trove identifier and created a work identifier? (If that was done, ideally the Trave citation format would change to suit but that's a separate issue). (And, in this particular case, the actual text is online at ttps://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdq0/~edisp/dd_044331.pdf <http://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdq0/%7Eedisp/dd_044331.pdf> so I'd like to be have a that link and a trove reference). -- Peter Jeremy _______________________________________________ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l _______________________________________________ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l _______________________________________________ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l _______________________________________________ Wikimediaau-l mailing list Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimediaau-l@lists.wikimedia.org> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaau-l -- GN. 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