On Tuesday, Nov 4, 2003, at 16:55 US/Central, Gerry Krage wrote:
Dean and everyone,
�
The majority of the people in attendance were there for both public hearings, Riverbend's plat and Treetops.
�
Riverbend's plat discussion has little to do with Wal-Mart, for the road in question is necessary regardless of who goes there.� Even so, we listened to every speaker and most had great input.� Throughout the public hearing there was some Council discussion, but it was limited for there was very little to say about the plat.
Since you say it was not about Wal-Mart, I will let you have your wish...
Why did the council go against the planning commission and then seem to go back to the notion of re-planning the area out? Why do Winona tax payers need to pay for the reconstruction of the traffic flow on the east end when those that wish to create the problem are very profitable institutions and should be expected to cough up every cent to mitigate that problem? (1) Why are Winonanan's being misled about what the referendum dollars paid for? Why are Winonanan's about to be asked again for another referendum that will likely be managed just as bad as the last one? (2) Why are Winonanan's pointing out that the council has not been returning phone calls to only see this possibly be referred to as innuendo? If it is innuendo, explain why someone would make such a false claim? If the claim is so false, why then have you not asked that the err be corrected? If this the err is so false, have you considered retaining legal council and filing a slander suit? Help me out here! I am trying as hard as I can to be on your side, or at least see your points, since Winona First botched the opposition, but you leave me no room to justify that position. There are way too many questions and no answers. I will leave you with that batch to answer, for now.
Treetops' public hearing took well over an hour and involved a lively discussion from all parties including the Council.� The decision was unanimous to turn Treetops down which was exactly what all but two of the speakers wanted.� Dean failed to mention any of this.
Was that the point of Dean's email? No.
Although, as you should be fully aware of, Dean pointed out in an announcement of that meeting that treetops was a discussion point. You may also recall that I posed questions to the anti-Wal Mart persons of WOD as to what the point of attending that meeting was and I received not one reply publicly or privately. (3)
Why is this even an issue?
Dean asked the question "who are these men (the council) representing?"� Well, I try my best to represent the people of Winona's 2nd Ward.� Regarding Wal-Mart I have received over one hundred comments, of which over 95% are strongly in favor of them coming to Winona.
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Yes, the elections are one year away.� Dean, I urge you step away from the keyboard and into the process as a candidate.� You'll quickly find out that it is an extremely difficult job where every decision leaves some constituents happy and others upset.� It's a challenging job, but also extremely rewarding.� (Not monetarily).
Heh...
I am really getting tired of seeing this anti-computer crap. Every-time someone makes a good point in an email the other side comes to this instinctive get away from your keyboard line. (That sounds like a personal attack to me.) Would it have made any difference if Dean said it to your face or phoned you? No, so what is your point? Why did you just waste my time with that comment?
That candidate idea is nothing more than a convenient "shut up" ploy that politicians use to rally their supporters (unfortunately it rarely gathers new ones). Perhaps Dean is on to something and should pursue that line more. Why does the barking dog bark? It barks to obscure something else so muzzling the dog and going past the dog may yield tremendous dividends.
It is too bad about elections, at least for those with seats... because in 362 days I will be voting for not one incumbent at any level on the ballot. (Sorry, this does not mean poor challengers will get a free ride with me. If I find no one suitable, like the Frosty-Brand race (which looked quite suspect from all angles) the write in line will come in handy.) What does that say?
Sorry Gerry, I will not run for office in a town that would rather "screw" its population, namely college students, that are the main driver of the Winona economy, with pointless parking tickets and ect, simply to appease the older baby boomer population that seems to have massive difficulties understanding what right-of-way means or how to properly operate the turn signals of their motor vehicle.
I find your comments as a whole interesting though. Below you complain about being "attacked" and above you seem to welcome it. I am confused, your position makes no sense to me. (4) I fail to see where any council member can complain about attacks. They simply are not in a position to complain. The city council clearly violated massive sections of the state open meeting law (5). First they meet with Wal Mart illegally and then to circumvent process a special meeting is called for two days later. What is so important that it could not wait? This little ploy opened the council up to well deserved attacks. If you wanted a Wal Mart so badly, following the law and normal process would have silenced your critics on the spot. ***This discussion would not exist had the council done that simple little item.*** Instead of silencing them you have airlifted them enough ammunition to file a lawsuit and put the breaks on this half baked debacle in progress. What harm would have happened to Winona had the council followed normal process as opposed to the ram rod technique? The answer is obvious, none, yet the council acted anyway.
I enjoy reading WOD.� However, I don't feel that it was created as a forum for one to constantly attack with partial facts and endless innuendo.� My responses are not in defense of my actions, but rather to inform and provide a fuller and more accurate picture.� I have invited Dean to meet with me to discuss issues, but was flatly and sarcastically turned down.
Perhaps Dean turned you down because of your apparent and unapologetic hardline pro-Wal Mart stance.
What is there to discuss with one that has made up their mind? I find it difficult to find any discussion points with those that refuse to cite their own reasons for supporting something. Take your position, you cite, 95 percent support of Wal Mart (which I respectfully do not believe). Basically, your support can be equated to that of a lemming and I have found it difficult to convince a lemming not to jump when others are doing the same thing.
Furthermore, discussion with Dean. Why pursue that? Is it so you can be like another coconspirator on the council that found it necessary to lecture those opposing Wal Mart? I do not find that to be listening or discussing. Perhaps in light of another coconspirators insolent conduct Dean was expecting another lecture and did not want to waste his time.
If the same offer was made to me, I would not be so nice as Dean was, my answer would be a "hell no, but..." The conditional of the offer would be reliant on whether or not you agree to use your opinion or a group of lemmings as the basis of the discussion points.
Hmm... Attacks... Again!
Well, I suppose if I pointed out a semantic err in your email that would be considered an attack by your view point.
If you do not like something about the list complain to the moderators. I am sure they will at least read what you have say and take that into consideration. Generic complaints to the list generally do not help. (... ... ...)
...and then after you are done complaining to the moderators explain your little "I am the victim defence" that seems highly apparent when the real victims are the citizens of Winona who have been short changed by their local government; notably the city council, that does not act within the law or even have the streets ploughed reasonably, but, somehow it encourages the writing of useless parking tickets with increased fines and puts up more unneeded stop signs.
Thank you�WOD�for the construcive questions and professional debate.� In my opinion the less than professional attacks are at times entertaining, but accomplish little else.
�
Gerry Krage
452-4404
...so is that what you are calling questions now, attacks? If so, consider this a declaration of war.
... ...
(1) Winona could create a reliable Mass Transit system, one that I cannot walk faster than, and create stimuli for reducing the problem of some traffic. If this would occur some aspects of the congestion would evaporate.
(2) I supported the first referendum, but I will not support another referendum to bail out the city council's deception, especially a referendum that is nothing more than a subsidy to one of the most profitable corporations on the planet. It is absolutely ridiculous that a mentality exists to get tough on welfare moms but when it comes to getting tough with welfare corporations people cannot line up fast enough to validate such a bunch of crap like new stadiums, land grants, or free roads that seem to benefit no one except the owners that are already in a position to pay for the projects that they want but refuse to knowing that government representatives are suckers.
(3) I was expecting a heap of hate mail for that incident, or at least some raw rhetoric, but I did not expect those that complain about unresponsive government to be just as unresponsive. I had expected most of this to originate from those that attended the meeting with the UCFW Union representative where I asked about 1/4 of the questions and made many useful points for the anti-Wal Mart movement. (My useful discussion points were omitted from the WDN article because it was preoccupied with saving its image by wasting space about what one government representative accurately described as one of the paper's primary biases.)
(4) Take note of those last two words before saying anything. Since this list is so predictable at times, I know someone will ignore those last two words and twist that statement around and I would hate to have to point that out to someone. (Of course someone will get mad at me for writing that last comment but I am tired to death of writing new emails because someone jumps on words that suit their purpose.)
(5) Read it and weep... http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/13D/
********************************************
David Dittmann
Did anyone at the crooked 'E' ever ask, " 'Why' is the 'E' in 'Enron' crooked?"
----- Original Message ----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 3:13 PM Subject: [Winona] 363 Days
Monday night I took the opportunity to watch the televised Winona City Council Meeting, paying particular attention to the "public hearing" on the Riverbend Retail Park plat plan.
What I heard was about half a dozen intelligent, articulate citizens of Winona speaking their concerns about this plan and the council's seeming hurry to push it through.
I head no speaker speak in favor of the plan.
However, when the "public hearing" was over the council not only approved the plan, they did so unanimously and without A SINGLE WORD OF DISCUSSION on the motion.
It seemed obviously clear that the council members had made up their minds to approve the plan before the meeting began and merely went through the formality of holding a "public hearing".
The question needs to be asked; who are these men representing? The citizens who voted them into office or the interests of the Wal-Mart empire?
Wal-Mart say they can have a store up in Winona in 18 months. Winnows however, need only wait 363 days until the next election.
Dean Lanz
_______________________________________________ This message was posted to Winona Online Democracy All messages must be signed by the senders actual name. No commercial solicitations are allowed on this list. To manage your subscription or view the message archives, please visit http://mapnp.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/winona Any problems or suggestions can be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you want help on how to contact elected officials, go to the Contact page at http://www.winonaonlinedemocracy.org
