Well, lets really spice it up then....I'm going to stir the pot in this direction for this post....

Alvarion has done a great job of producing a product that does an excellent job delivering value to their customers and has several unique features that will keep it on a different level above what the open source/standard hardware crew will ever be capable of. They maintain strict control over the hardware components and feel it is important to keep continuity with their already existing products. There are some valid technical reasons for doing things that way, and some equally valid business reasons for having equipment that is non-standard. Alvarion is in business TO MAKE MONEY - and they have done an excellent job retaining value and delivering a consistently usable product to the WISP industry while making money. This is not a hobby for them. Mark, you unfortunately fall into the hardware trap of "humping your radios" and spending a heck of a lot of time worrying about having the neatest gadget for your wisp. You are in a rural area and don't have to worry about issues of scale. If you continue to spend all that time putting together each radio and trying to micromanage each customer connection you will not scale beyond a couple hundred customers. Alvarion has put together products that have a steeper initial learning curve but are very flexible, very manageable and will scale. I know of one Alvarion operator that is at 18,000 customers - you don't reach that level putting your own CPEs together and requiring the high level of installation skill to put a StarOS or MT based CPE into service. You might think that Alvarion and others are "Late to the Party" but you have "Missed the Boat" when it comes to building your core business around a scalable, manageable product.

I am personally really glad to see Alvarion taking a more involved interest in the WISP market. I think they have recognized that they can learn a lot from some of the cowboys out there. Just remember that we can learn a lot from them as well.

Matt Larsen

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 12:52 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients...

When a market knows it must contend with fraudulent product AND that a
good percentage of that market will support the fraud, what's the
decision you think vendors will make when it comes to prioritizing
investments in this business? Licensed or unlicensed? WISPs or a market
segment that buys only legal product? For Pete's sake people, you think
your actions don't have actual consequences just because you are staying
within the legal power limits? Some of you make guys make the jobs of
guys like me who seriously give a rip real, real hard.

Aw, give it a rest, Patrick.

Valemount's product runs rings around many in terms of features.    So, how
many MILLIONS would it take for Alvarion to produce a box that does what
WISP's need it to do?   Not even as much as you spend producing stuff that
costs too much for some to use.

So, exactly WHO is to blame when software vendor X produces what we REALLY
need, hardware vendor Y produces what we REALLY need,  and the people who
want to have the "secret black boxes"  with unknown guts under the hood
won't listen and learn?

The fact is, that the little guy... the Joe Blow Schmuck is 5 X more capable
of figuring out what it is he wants than a whole team of highly paid product
developers who won't listen.   While you may get engineers to figure out
every last possible means of adjusting the 802.11 MAC and doing really cool
stuff with it, who's to blame for thinking we should BRIDGE our networks
together?    If Schmuck A can figure out how to build a workable board in
China, Schmuck B can find some great working little mini-pci radios with
INDUSTRY STANDARD connectors on both the cpu board and the card and Schmuck
C can figure out how to put a FREE OS together and then develop some drivers
to do the cool RF stuff, and all the rest of us dullard schmucks are still
bright enough to figure out how to PUT THEM ALL TOGETHER and use them to
dramatic advantage over what the engineers and developers keep trying to
foist on us...  Exactly WHO is to blame?

Maybe we're collectivley to blame because we didn't pony 200 bucks up each
and get some lab to FCC certify the assembly?    I dunno.   Exactly WHOSE
fault is that?    I dunno.   I don't know that it's even our fault at all.
Maybe the laws need to be updated to reflect the reality of the industry and
the state of our technology.

So then while I congratulate Lonnie's innovation, he needs to come clean
and go legal.

Lonnie's not doing a dang thing illegal.    Well, I hope he's not.   Maybe
he secretly runs stop signs on some back road in a fit of legal defiance...
but certainly neither you nor I would know, now would we?

Sorry Lonnie, but yes if you are doing this it does gall
me. It galls me when folks outside our borders go around the legal paths
to our market. It's cheesy. It's dishonest. It's anti-competitive.

Well, Patrick, I AM WITHIN OUR BORDERS and I am going around YOUR borders
because I can produce something far better suited to what I need than all
your engineers and developers combined.   Now tell me, how the bloody hell
that's possible?    Am I some evil monster because I can install an OS on a
board, snap in a minipci card, seal it up in a NEMA4X enclosure and mount it
on a rooftop to get me a freaking bloody WORKING CPE????   One that costs
more, but pays because it has the features and performance and reliability
that exceeds some "certified" products from some manufacturers?

it's simply illegal. You've done all the work, why not go legal? If not,
do you have any right to complain if someone copies your soft work and
sells it as his own? Or do you think, "Hey, that's different, he's
damaging me!"

Well, hell, now you've got it all laid out for you.   Will we see the $185
linux powered, changeable radio module,  poe, weatherproof rooftop box, AP,
backhaul, etc, w/ all the needed features Alvarion product announced on July
4, 07?    With all the RF knowledge and board design and chipset experience
and programming capabilities that Alvarion SHOULD have in-house, this ought
to be a no-brainer walk in the park, right?

You guys may not like the rules, but they are there and the rest of us
have to abide by them and incur all the expense required to play by the

And if you are an operator reading this, do you really think staying
under the legal power limit makes you righteous? It makes you no more
righteous that a guy beside you on the tower that does a beautiful NEC
poster child of an install but does not have legal right to use the

I know many find this attitude insulting and I know as a vendor I'm
supposed to just hold my tongue so as not to piss people off, because
there will be those who might say, "Because of that attitude I've never
buy one Alvarion radio!" Maybe so, but I can accept that because this
stuff weakens all WISPs claims, all attempts to be regarded as
legitimate players, and it sucker punches all of us who fight on your

Patrick, you do the above...Your company... OR ANY company, produce the "no
brainer" product and you have a point.   But, hell.  Nobody will.   Why?  Ya
got me, I can't answer it.   Maybe because all of us who know what we want
are Joe Schmuck WISP's  and we haven't the resources.    And what, pray
tell, are you "fighting on our behalf?"   I don't have a clue what Alvarion
has been advocating to the regulators about...   But I do know that a couple
of  the big players in this game are definitely AGAINST us.

For sure, in doing so you can't ever complain about the person that
sneaks into the ball game for free, right behind home plate, while you
and your family paid. Don't you ever complain that your neighbor's kid
gets a student grant because his parents hide income when yours can't
qualify because your family makes "too much." Don't you ever complain
about a rancher or farmer getting over on you on water rights because no
one's looking. And don't complain about the Yahoo next door using an
illegal amp.

Illegal WISPs equivocate by saying, "Hey, I'm within the power limits.
I'm not hurting anyone." Well, it's not true. You are hurting every
legitimate WISP and every legitimate vendor, and in turn you hurt the
entire industry. And some WISPs have the gall to say, why won't someone
build X? Well, maybe because so many WISPs to save themselves a buck
will buy illegal product that it discourages investment from legit
players. When a market knows it must contend with fraudulent product AND
that a good percentage of that market will support the fraud, what's the
decision you think vendors will make when it comes to prioritizing

Yeah, if 3 Joe Blow Schmucks can produce a WRAP board with Star-OS and
produce a performing and featureful FULL SOLUTION for WISP's there's not a
damn reason in the whole freaking world why your organization should NOT
have something 2X as good and 2X the features for 1/2 the price!   Even if
you just had to COPY and produce it with just the already accumulated
in-house knowledge and experience and with the economies of scale of aan
organization your size...   You should be able to beat it.

This should be a COMMODITY, Patrick.   Just like Eveready, Duracell, and
Rayovac produce real competitive battery solutions.     Neither I, nor
anyone I know, can build a battery within miles of what they can.   And it's
cheap.   And they're GOOD.    But a guy in Switzerland,  a couple
programmers in Canada, and a dumb Schmuck in Oregon named Mark with a
backwoodsy WISP, can, in the course of not so long, actually produce
something really GOOD, competitive in performance,  convenient beyond
belief,  excellent value and with all the damn features we want.   The only
thing actually LACKING is FCC certification because nobody's willing to fork
over the bucks, and the fact that by the time they're done, the products are
obsolete and replaced with something new and better.   So, that being the
case, and from my POV, you're WAY  behind the curve, here.

>From my POV, it's the snail's pace and blind-eyed stonewalling from the few
who have obstructed progress for so long, that it has become possible, and
has CREATED this attempt to get AROUND the obstructive industry and GET ON
WITH BUSINESS.    It's truly a sad state of affairs that Alvarion, Trango,
Motorola, and others are truly LATE TO THE PARTY and never seem to catch up
with what a few of us dumb schmucks can do.

And if I was a legal operator in the same market as an illegal
competitor, I'd for sure use that against them with respect to winning
roof and tower rights, fighting their interference in court, and
informing their customers of the risks. And that'd all be an entirely
fair and ethical approach.

There's a bumper sticker that says "Lead, follow, or get the hell outa the
way!"    And, from this guys' POV,  you're complaining because you thought
the road to heaven ran through your tollbooth and instead we've found a

heck, maybe if we could get the certifying business down to a commodity with
the help of some FCC policy changes,  maybe we could all get in the letter
of the law compliance instead of waiting year after year for the wagon train
up front to get outa the way of this train!

Rant off. Sigh. G'night. Be safe this New Years. ...and BE LEGAL!

Honestly, rant off... Happy new year to you, as well...


neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

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