----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Well, it was time to stir the pot for the new year...
> Well, lets really spice it up then....I'm going to stir the pot in this > direction for this post.... > > Alvarion has done a great job of producing a product that does an > excellent job delivering value to their customers and has several unique > features that will keep it on a different level above what the open > source/standard hardware crew will ever be capable of. They maintain > strict control over the hardware components and feel it is important to > keep continuity with their already existing products. There are some > valid technical reasons for doing things that way, and some equally > valid business reasons for having equipment that is non-standard. > Alvarion is in business TO MAKE MONEY - and they have done an excellent > job retaining value and delivering a consistently usable product to the > WISP industry while making money. This is not a hobby for them. Nobody here is saying it is. I just think they're a fish out of water when it comes to how fast the evolution of WISP and technology has become. BRIDGING a residential network? What the??? > > Mark, you unfortunately fall into the hardware trap of "humping your > radios" and spending a heck of a lot of time worrying about having the > neatest gadget for your wisp. I do? When? I spent a lot of time... A while back, picking what I'd go with for a while. I spend a lot more time sitting down and doing "what ifs" and comparing my roadmap to what appears to be the market and t he consumer. Far more than I fiddle with "goodies". You are in a rural area and don't have to > worry about issues of scale. If you continue to spend all that time > putting together each radio and trying to micromanage each customer > connection you will not scale beyond a couple hundred customers. Yah know, I'm going to spending longer doing paperwork tracking these things than I will putting them together. Fire it up, click, upload config file, save, set the AP for the c lient cpe and vice versa (funny, you gotta do this with everything ya buy) go hang it. I've gone from bare parts to full CPE in 15 minutes. That's configured for client's speed, put in the enclosure, and all the settings done. I wonder how long it takes to configure a VL product for use? Probably not much less. Again, I'm going to have more time in doing paperwork tracking serial numbers and parts and inventory than I will in "fiddling around". But then, there WILL be customer support issues just like I have now... When the dog chews the wire off the side of the house (who'd have thought the dog would get on top of the AC unit and chew a wire stapled under the lower edge of the siding ridge???) , or the customer unplugs everyting and plugs the wrong stuff into the wrong thing (more than once now). And don't tell me that dirty power has no effect on Trango or VL or whatever. Of c ourse it does. Or that the customer has blown his switch... (again) due to power surges and doesn't realize why he's "offline". These will happen with any product. They're just part of the human equation. Yes, I have had lightning losses. Yes, I did have a customer than turned her CPE on and off several times a day (no kidding!) because she thought that it was dangerous to leave it on and no amount of explaining wouild change her mind. And then... one day, it didn't come back on. > Alvarion has put together products that have a steeper initial learning > curve but are very flexible, very manageable and will scale. I know of > one Alvarion operator that is at 18,000 customers - you don't reach that > level putting your own CPEs together and requiring the high level of > installation skill to put a StarOS or MT based CPE into service. What high level of skill is that? I'd say it takes precisely EQUAL skill. It doesn't matter if you're putting up the equivalent of a space shuttle or kite on a string, it takes about the same amount of time. The "fiddlybits" have always been related to physical issues at the customer site, not cpe. The time involved in installs has been a vast majority of OTHER things, never problems with the cpe that weren't my own failure to do something really simple (like bring the box... duhh). You > might think that Alvarion and others are "Late to the Party" but you > have "Missed the Boat" when it comes to building your core business > around a scalable, manageable product. Really? How the bloody heck do you maintain even a modicum of QC on your network if you have residential customers putting in thier own router? Or do I pretend to be Qwest and say "if we didn't install it we don't support it"? I'm not even going to pretend I can have the c ustomer touch his router. For the few who did install thier own, they've been more troublesome than anything else. So, can someone point me to a residential router that's... idgitproof? I can't find any that don't raise the price of that Alvarion radio 50 bucks or more, and even then, I haven't a smidgeon of faith in any of them. The models come and go like the wind. If I were selling telecom grade services with an SLA, you think I'd choose what I have? Of course not. But if I were, letting the customer own and run his own router wouldn't be any particular issue, then, would it? I'd reasonably expect they had in-house staff to do it, or they'd ask me to contract the service. A whole different market and assumptions. > > I am personally really glad to see Alvarion taking a more involved > interest in the WISP market. I think they have recognized that they can > learn a lot from some of the cowboys out there. Just remember that we > can learn a lot from them as well. Well, I am too. Maybe they'll stop trying to dictate a network has to be run stupidly and start recognizing that the WISP market is diverse and ranges from the high end telecom type networks to low end residential, and there's one hell of a lot more residences to serve than high end customers. Heck, I don't even dream of putting business customers on a network designed and priced for profitable residential service at a COMPETITIVE price. And every customer I have so far has pretty much agreed. I tell them right up front that my competitor offers that "higher end" service with gaurantees and all that, and none that I am aware of has ever switched or chosen the competition. It's all about knowing who you're selling to and what you're selling. What if Alvarion got a brain fart and decided to build that "good enough" cpe for residential use, with all the functions of a router, with the good RF stuff they learned from the R&D to make the high end stuff? Would it kill them? Heck no. The telcos, the cablecos, they know that residential has a price point, and they put far lesser crap on the desktop than what I have now. Heck, it could only HELP the market, not hurt it. I had a conversation a couple weeks ago with some people who've never heard of this list and never heard of what I use. They're offering big time financing. They asked me "what's your most valuable asset" and I said "my customers". I passed. He said that 95% of WISP operators say "my network". I have never operated under the illusion that my star-os based backbone is goign to be "adequate" for a large customer base. But that customer base is going to be one customer at a time, one access point at a time, with lots of them not fully built out because of where I am and what my market is like. But for now, it is adequate and by the time I need to do that upgrade... I'll have the cash flow to pay for it. And my assumptions about how long it will last, and that answering the question of "how will I pay for it" has proven to be not only right, but it's better than I had hoped. Heck, I'm going to have 200 customers and not even have a secretary or an office (other than my van), just a workshop / storage building and manage it just fine. Scale? Well, yes. Sufficently for what I'm doing. And, whether you think so or not, for a LOT of people serving residential broadband. > > Matt Larsen > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Mark Koskenmaki wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > > Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 12:52 AM > > Subject: RE: [WISPA] StarOS or Microtik with TRCPQ clients... > > > > > > > >> When a market knows it must contend with fraudulent product AND that a > >> good percentage of that market will support the fraud, what's the > >> decision you think vendors will make when it comes to prioritizing > >> investments in this business? Licensed or unlicensed? WISPs or a market > >> segment that buys only legal product? For Pete's sake people, you think > >> your actions don't have actual consequences just because you are staying > >> within the legal power limits? Some of you make guys make the jobs of > >> guys like me who seriously give a rip real, real hard. > >> > > > > Aw, give it a rest, Patrick. > > > > Valemount's product runs rings around many in terms of features. So, how > > many MILLIONS would it take for Alvarion to produce a box that does what > > WISP's need it to do? Not even as much as you spend producing stuff that > > costs too much for some to use. > > > > So, exactly WHO is to blame when software vendor X produces what we REALLY > > need, hardware vendor Y produces what we REALLY need, and the people who > > want to have the "secret black boxes" with unknown guts under the hood > > won't listen and learn? > > > > The fact is, that the little guy... the Joe Blow Schmuck is 5 X more capable > > of figuring out what it is he wants than a whole team of highly paid product > > developers who won't listen. While you may get engineers to figure out > > every last possible means of adjusting the 802.11 MAC and doing really cool > > stuff with it, who's to blame for thinking we should BRIDGE our networks > > together? If Schmuck A can figure out how to build a workable board in > > China, Schmuck B can find some great working little mini-pci radios with > > INDUSTRY STANDARD connectors on both the cpu board and the card and Schmuck > > C can figure out how to put a FREE OS together and then develop some drivers > > to do the cool RF stuff, and all the rest of us dullard schmucks are still > > bright enough to figure out how to PUT THEM ALL TOGETHER and use them to > > dramatic advantage over what the engineers and developers keep trying to > > foist on us... Exactly WHO is to blame? > > > > Maybe we're collectivley to blame because we didn't pony 200 bucks up each > > and get some lab to FCC certify the assembly? I dunno. Exactly WHOSE > > fault is that? I dunno. I don't know that it's even our fault at all. > > Maybe the laws need to be updated to reflect the reality of the industry and > > the state of our technology. > > > > > >> So then while I congratulate Lonnie's innovation, he needs to come clean > >> and go legal. > >> > > > > Lonnie's not doing a dang thing illegal. Well, I hope he's not. Maybe > > he secretly runs stop signs on some back road in a fit of legal defiance... > > but certainly neither you nor I would know, now would we? > > > > Sorry Lonnie, but yes if you are doing this it does gall > > > >> me. It galls me when folks outside our borders go around the legal paths > >> to our market. It's cheesy. It's dishonest. It's anti-competitive. > >> > > > > Well, Patrick, I AM WITHIN OUR BORDERS and I am going around YOUR borders > > because I can produce something far better suited to what I need than all > > your engineers and developers combined. Now tell me, how the bloody hell > > that's possible? Am I some evil monster because I can install an OS on a > > board, snap in a minipci card, seal it up in a NEMA4X enclosure and mount it > > on a rooftop to get me a freaking bloody WORKING CPE???? One that costs > > more, but pays because it has the features and performance and reliability > > that exceeds some "certified" products from some manufacturers? > > > > And > > > >> it's simply illegal. You've done all the work, why not go legal? If not, > >> do you have any right to complain if someone copies your soft work and > >> sells it as his own? Or do you think, "Hey, that's different, he's > >> damaging me!" > >> > > > > Well, hell, now you've got it all laid out for you. Will we see the $185 > > linux powered, changeable radio module, poe, weatherproof rooftop box, AP, > > backhaul, etc, w/ all the needed features Alvarion product announced on July > > 4, 07? With all the RF knowledge and board design and chipset experience > > and programming capabilities that Alvarion SHOULD have in-house, this ought > > to be a no-brainer walk in the park, right? > > > > > >> You guys may not like the rules, but they are there and the rest of us > >> have to abide by them and incur all the expense required to play by the > >> rules. > >> > >> And if you are an operator reading this, do you really think staying > >> under the legal power limit makes you righteous? It makes you no more > >> righteous that a guy beside you on the tower that does a beautiful NEC > >> poster child of an install but does not have legal right to use the > >> tower. > >> > >> I know many find this attitude insulting and I know as a vendor I'm > >> supposed to just hold my tongue so as not to piss people off, because > >> there will be those who might say, "Because of that attitude I've never > >> buy one Alvarion radio!" Maybe so, but I can accept that because this > >> stuff weakens all WISPs claims, all attempts to be regarded as > >> legitimate players, and it sucker punches all of us who fight on your > >> behalf. > >> > > > > Patrick, you do the above...Your company... OR ANY company, produce the "no > > brainer" product and you have a point. But, hell. Nobody will. Why? Ya > > got me, I can't answer it. Maybe because all of us who know what we want > > are Joe Schmuck WISP's and we haven't the resources. And what, pray > > tell, are you "fighting on our behalf?" I don't have a clue what Alvarion > > has been advocating to the regulators about... But I do know that a couple > > of the big players in this game are definitely AGAINST us. > > > > > >> For sure, in doing so you can't ever complain about the person that > >> sneaks into the ball game for free, right behind home plate, while you > >> and your family paid. Don't you ever complain that your neighbor's kid > >> gets a student grant because his parents hide income when yours can't > >> qualify because your family makes "too much." Don't you ever complain > >> about a rancher or farmer getting over on you on water rights because no > >> one's looking. And don't complain about the Yahoo next door using an > >> illegal amp. > >> > >> Illegal WISPs equivocate by saying, "Hey, I'm within the power limits. > >> I'm not hurting anyone." Well, it's not true. You are hurting every > >> legitimate WISP and every legitimate vendor, and in turn you hurt the > >> entire industry. And some WISPs have the gall to say, why won't someone > >> build X? Well, maybe because so many WISPs to save themselves a buck > >> will buy illegal product that it discourages investment from legit > >> players. When a market knows it must contend with fraudulent product AND > >> that a good percentage of that market will support the fraud, what's the > >> decision you think vendors will make when it comes to prioritizing > >> investments? > >> > > > > Yeah, if 3 Joe Blow Schmucks can produce a WRAP board with Star-OS and > > produce a performing and featureful FULL SOLUTION for WISP's there's not a > > damn reason in the whole freaking world why your organization should NOT > > have something 2X as good and 2X the features for 1/2 the price! Even if > > you just had to COPY and produce it with just the already accumulated > > in-house knowledge and experience and with the economies of scale of aan > > organization your size... You should be able to beat it. > > > > This should be a COMMODITY, Patrick. Just like Eveready, Duracell, and > > Rayovac produce real competitive battery solutions. Neither I, nor > > anyone I know, can build a battery within miles of what they can. And it's > > cheap. And they're GOOD. But a guy in Switzerland, a couple > > programmers in Canada, and a dumb Schmuck in Oregon named Mark with a > > backwoodsy WISP, can, in the course of not so long, actually produce > > something really GOOD, competitive in performance, convenient beyond > > belief, excellent value and with all the damn features we want. The only > > thing actually LACKING is FCC certification because nobody's willing to fork > > over the bucks, and the fact that by the time they're done, the products are > > obsolete and replaced with something new and better. So, that being the > > case, and from my POV, you're WAY behind the curve, here. > > > > >From my POV, it's the snail's pace and blind-eyed stonewalling from the few > > who have obstructed progress for so long, that it has become possible, and > > has CREATED this attempt to get AROUND the obstructive industry and GET ON > > WITH BUSINESS. It's truly a sad state of affairs that Alvarion, Trango, > > Motorola, and others are truly LATE TO THE PARTY and never seem to catch up > > with what a few of us dumb schmucks can do. > > > > > >> And if I was a legal operator in the same market as an illegal > >> competitor, I'd for sure use that against them with respect to winning > >> roof and tower rights, fighting their interference in court, and > >> informing their customers of the risks. And that'd all be an entirely > >> fair and ethical approach. > >> > > > > There's a bumper sticker that says "Lead, follow, or get the hell outa the > > way!" And, from this guys' POV, you're complaining because you thought > > the road to heaven ran through your tollbooth and instead we've found a > > shortcut. > > > > heck, maybe if we could get the certifying business down to a commodity with > > the help of some FCC policy changes, maybe we could all get in the letter > > of the law compliance instead of waiting year after year for the wagon train > > up front to get outa the way of this train! > > > > > > > > > >> Rant off. Sigh. G'night. Be safe this New Years. ...and BE LEGAL! > >> > > > > Honestly, rant off... Happy new year to you, as well... > > > > AND GET A MOVE ON ALREADY! > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington > > email me at mark at neofast dot net > > 541-969-8200 > > Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net > > > > > > -- > WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
