> Canopy has fixed AP/SM latency. > It is always the same unless the AP is totally out of headroom
Yeah, thats what we thought to, the first few years. It took a few trips out to customers, during heavy load periods, to learn that it doesn't always work like theory. How do you know, if you aren't on the customer's side measuring? And measuring the network segment the customer is actually on? Admittedly, we saw it more with NLOS 900Mhz sectors, that were likely to have more congestion and retransmissions, but the principle is still the same, regardless. As you stated... "as long as you aren't overloading the AP". The point is, when oversubscribing, can a WISP avoid overloading an AP? I'd never get a way with 130 CPE per AP, with an honored latency guarantee under 10ms. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying we don't have a low latency network. We are usually undersubscribed, and low latency is one of our strong points competitively. Nor am I saying that most customers aren't going to be satisfied with the latency, as it'll likely be lower than the alternatives. I'm just saying, I've had to be careful what I promise in my sales pitches, because customers are starting to be smart enough to call me on it after the fact. I'd rather under spec and over deliver, than over promise and not deliver. What we learned is we can't trust our remote monitoring tools to be a 100% clear picture of the customers' experiences. We always have to keep an open mind regarding possibilities. If a custoemr calls reporting an alledged performance issue, there is a good chance they are legitimately seeing something, that our monitoring just didn;t pick up. Also note that its not always the Radio in question, some routers pass traffic from their WAN port faster than it can pass traffic "through" the router in heavy load. One of the things that caught my eye, was the recent post in this thread that sated canopy prioritized return ACKs. That sounds like a good featur. With other brands, Sometimes we have found that under load the upload direction acks can get dropped, and thus more delay before retransmissions. Both layer2 and layer3 wait a defined period for an Ack or Packlet delivery to be confirmed, thus higher random latency. What we are also learnign is that we can only Guarantee what the customer's usage perception was, and we can go faster than teh weakest link. For example, From our NOC to the customer we can usually get less than 5ms to any/everywhere. And from our NOC towards the Internet we can get under 5ms right before leaving our Upstream's netwokr. But its not uncommon to ahve 40ms or 80ms latency to specific sites depending on where the destination is. The custoemr can never go faster than teh speed of their Internet destination's ISP provided. Now, we just talk up the benefit of our low latency and superior on-net performance, but steer away from actually giving someone a hard set latency number to guarantee.We only want to guarantee what we can honestly measure with 99% accuracy. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers > Not quite sure what all is in the MIB but Canopy has fixed AP/SM latency. > It is always the same unless the AP is totally out of headroom. And that > is > easy to manage by not overloading the AP. Once you are in the 130-160 > range > of SMs on an AP it is time to add another AP. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:50 AM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers > > >> Can you SNMP query the SU, to pull latency stats that might have been >> recorded at the SU from the SU side? >> >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:49 PM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers >> >> >>> snmp is a wonderful thing... >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Chuck McCown - 3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:47 PM >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers >>> >>> >>>> Our front end tech support only needs the phone number or account >>>> number >>>> to >>>> instantly find and edit every detail about the customer. No scrolling, >>>> no >>>> nothing. This includes AP, SM, IP, LUID etc. That is no problem at >>>> all. >>>> You can manage SM/AP pairing with color codes or frequencies. Since >>>> this >>>> is >>>> not 802.11 latency is guaranteed by the protocol. >>>> >>>> And we have high priority BW on each AP for Voip. Voip on our system >>>> is >>>> form fit and function equivalent to LEC POTS service. Quality, LNP, >>>> E-911 >>>> etc. I have a hard time accepting that you can do that on 802.11 gear. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:39 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> We don't use DHCP. Every single customer gets a real, static IP >>>>> address. >>>>> We also a assign a static IP address to every radio (for management). >>>>> >>>>> When I posted the question a month ago about how to force an SM to >>>>> connect to a specific AP on a tower, the only answer was "color code". >>>>> This isn't really an option, as that means the installer has to change >>>>> the color code in the field. All of our current radios are setup and >>>>> ready to connect to ANY tower and ANY AP on that tower without the >>>>> installer doing anything in the field. >>>>> >>>>> And how does first level tech support even find the correct radio in >>>>> the >>>>> AP list for a customer on the phone? They have to scroll through 160 >>>>> people to find them by MAC address? >>>>> >>>>> Yes, Canopy is a slower radio in today's world. 14Mbps of total >>>>> throughput on a 20mhz channel is SLOW. Using Mikrotik I can get 30Mbps >>>>> (double the speed) on the same channel size. Or I can use a 10mhz >>>>> channel and get 15Mbps. And all these speeds can be delivered via >>>>> upload >>>>> or download or any combination, I don't have to set a specific >>>>> percentage of up/down. >>>>> >>>>> And how do you guarantee 7ms latency? What happens if a customer gets >>>>> 8ms? And how do they test that measurement? And what happens when a >>>>> customer completely clobbers an AP and 160 customers are getting 20ms >>>>> latency? Or you have interference from a new provider and all those >>>>> people get 100ms latency? >>>>> >>>>> Travis >>>>> Microserv >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: >>>>>> All of the complaints are easily overcome with the proper management >>>>>> software, DHCP reservations etc. You can easily force the SM to >>>>>> connect >>>>>> to the exact AP you want a couple different ways. And there are >>>>>> several >>>>>> non motorola software packages that do this kind of stuff. We have >>>>>> 5000 >>>>>> subs on it and we don't break a sweat in managing any of this. >>>>>> >>>>>> We put 128-160 customers per AP and they all still get 10.2 Mbps >>>>>> burst. >>>>>> Slower radio? That seems pretty fast to me. >>>>>> And we guarantee latency to 7 mS. Hmmm, that is pretty hard to do >>>>>> with >>>>>> anyone else. >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Travis Johnson >>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:39 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We've tried Canopy... twice in fact... once about 3 years ago, and >>>>>> once >>>>>> about a month ago. We just can't make it fit into our network >>>>>> management >>>>>> (IP database, Call tracking, customer management, etc.) system very >>>>>> well... having customer radios that change their LUID and IP address >>>>>> every time they register, having to set the bandwidth on each SM >>>>>> instead >>>>>> of the AP, having no security or ways to control which AP a customer >>>>>> connects to without having to buy their software, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> All that, plus paying MORE for a slower radio than what we are >>>>>> using >>>>>> just didn't make sense. I can put up an AP (2.4ghz, 5.3ghz, 5.4ghz, >>>>>> or >>>>>> 5.8ghz) for less than >>>>>> $400 that will support 50 customers, using only 10mhz wide >>>>>> channels... >>>>>> and each CPE is less than $175 complete (including PoE, antenna). >>>>>> >>>>>> Canopy seems to work well for many people... but I've never been >>>>>> one >>>>>> to >>>>>> follow the "norm". And I get to put $50 in my pocket on every >>>>>> install, >>>>>> and $1,000 for every AP we put up. ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> Travis >>>>>> Microserv >>>>>> >>>>>> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: >>>>>> Well that is a testimony to your quality of service for sure. >>>>>> Now, if you were using Canopy your customers would be even happier! >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:07 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have Qwest DSL, CableOne, another WISP (doing "up to 4meg" for >>>>>> $29.95 >>>>>> with Canopy), and a licensed WiMax (2.5ghz) provider (doing "up to >>>>>> 2meg", mobile, for $29.95). I have a lot of competition... and yet we >>>>>> have no sales people, no real advertising campaign, and more installs >>>>>> than we can keep up with each month. >>>>>> >>>>>> Travis >>>>>> Microserv >>>>>> >>>>>> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: >>>>>> You must not have competitors. I have both Qwest and Comcast >>>>>> giving >>>>>> away >>>>>> multi megabit starting at $15.95 >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: Travis Johnson >>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:53 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] heavy usage customers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess that's my point... why offer more bandwidth than you have >>>>>> to? >>>>>> Most people don't need more than 1meg, and that's our most popular >>>>>> package for $39.95 per month (total, no modem rental fee, etc.). Why >>>>>> give >>>>>> away the farm if you don't have to? :) >>>>>> >>>>>> Travis >>>>>> Microserv >>>>>> >>>>>> RickG wrote: >>>>>> Wow, with all that bandwidth, I'm surprised you dont offer higher >>>>>> speeds. >>>>>> >>>>>> Technically speaking, the download & upload price is the same. From a >>>>>> cost standpoint, I allocate the download & upload separately because >>>>>> I >>>>>> am "forced" to pay dearly ($1200/month) to AT&T for my dual T1's >>>>>> which >>>>>> are required for "decent" upload speeds. Right now, my traffic is >>>>>> split so all port 80 traffic flows though the 4Mbps x 2Mbps >>>>>> connection >>>>>> through Time Warner which runs over $500/month. This works fairly >>>>>> well >>>>>> for now since about half the traffic is web browsing. When I bought >>>>>> this WISP there was no management, monitoring or reporting. I took >>>>>> care of the management & monitoring and I'm working on the reporting. >>>>>> The best thing I've done is replace the StarOS firewall with Mikrotik >>>>>> and set up traffic priority. >>>>>> Whew! Lots of work. At any rate, I'm working on my upstream >>>>>> connection >>>>>> next. I really need to get the cost down. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks! -RickG >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Rick, >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, all of our packages are symmetrical speeds (same download and >>>>>> upload). >>>>>> So if they buy our 512k package, they get 512k down x 512k up all the >>>>>> time. >>>>>> They are not "dedicated" connections, but rather you get what you pay >>>>>> for >>>>>> connections. We still oversubscribe users on an AP, but only to the >>>>>> point >>>>>> where each AP is running around 60% capacity during peak times, thus >>>>>> leaving >>>>>> room for bursts, etc. We graph and monitor every single AP (over 200 >>>>>> of >>>>>> them) and every single user (bandwidth, packets, RSSI, etc.) so we >>>>>> always >>>>>> know what's happening on our network. >>>>>> >>>>>> We currently have three full OC-3 (155Mbps) dedicated connections to >>>>>> the >>>>>> backbone. On average, we pay $40/meg for bandwidth. Why is your >>>>>> upload >>>>>> price >>>>>> different than your download price? >>>>>> >>>>>> Travis >>>>>> Microserv >>>>>> >>>>>> RickG wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Travis, >>>>>> >>>>>> Nice work! Therefore, you are selling dedicated bandwidth to all of >>>>>> your customers. In other words, if all your customers run speed test >>>>>> at the same time they will get what their plan allows. If you dont >>>>>> mind, I have a few questions: >>>>>> Is the above scenario true for upload speed as well as download >>>>>> speed? >>>>>> What are you paying for your upstream connection? >>>>>> What type of upstream connection do you have? >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd like to be there and I keep hoping cheap bandwidth comes my way. >>>>>> When you are paying $150/meg for download and $400/meg for upload, >>>>>> the >>>>>> business model is tough. >>>>>> >>>>>> -RickG >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW: I'd take this offlist if you prefer but I think this is a >>>>>> problem >>>>>> that many us us small WISP's face. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Every customer can get the speed they are paying for ANY time they >>>>>> run >>>>>> a >>>>>> speed test. We offer packages from 512k to 2.5meg for residential >>>>>> customers >>>>>> and they always get what they pay for (download AND upload, which is >>>>>> the >>>>>> same for all of our packages). >>>>>> >>>>>> Travis >>>>>> Microserv >>>>>> >>>>>> RickG wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Travis, >>>>>> >>>>>> If I understand this correctly, you have at least 1Mbps or higher of >>>>>> bandwidth for every customer? >>>>>> >>>>>> -RickG >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We deliver what the customers pay for. If they purchase a 1Mbps >>>>>> package, >>>>>> they get 1Mbps 24x7 (with no monthly bit caps). Personally I have >>>>>> never >>>>>> liked the "up to" speed packages... it's like going to Walmart and >>>>>> buying milk. You can pay $3 for a full 1 gallon, or you can pay $2 >>>>>> for >>>>>> "up to" a gallon (without really knowing how much you are going to >>>>>> get, >>>>>> but it will be somewhere between nothing and a full gallon). >>>>>> >>>>>> Travis >>>>>> Microserv >>>>>> >>>>>> Kurt Fankhauser wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone else here have customer/s that consume so much bandwidth >>>>>> that >>>>>> you have to throttle them down after say 5 minutes of downloading. >>>>>> And >>>>>> what >>>>>> do you tell them when they start complaining about the throttled down >>>>>> speed. >>>>>> (they don't know your throttling them though) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kurt Fankhauser >>>>>> WAVELINC >>>>>> P.O. Box 126 >>>>>> Bucyrus, OH 44820 >>>>>> 419-562-6405 >>>>>> www.wavelinc.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> -------------------- >>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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