Just to resuscitate this thread ... We have a 1.2Km urban link, really only need 100Mbps, need ~5 9's of reliability.
We have deployed Mikrotik 5.3GHz and Radwin 5.3GHz and are getting interference. We've also gotten interfered with on Alvarion VL 5.8. We'd like to do 80GHz Bridgewave, but it's too expensive. 60GHz Bridgewave doesn't have enough reliability according to the link budget calculations. Without actually taking a spectrum analyzer to the location, what suggestion would anyone have about the best frequency & radio to deploy, to minimize interference issues, get ~100Mbps throughput and not pay more than ~$13,000 (including advance replacement warranty)? We're thinking Trango Apex or Dragonwave ... Thanks, Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Belton" <b...@belwave.com> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? > Half mile? Ours is almost 2.5miles in an RF unfriendly rain zone. The > link > has been up for more than a year and the client has been thrilled. So > thrilled in fact that we've got another planned for them with a roadmap of > more to follow. > > They're happy with the price and we're happy with the profit at that > price. > No reason to race to the bottom with yet another product when the market > clearly supports the current price point. > > Again, what are the options available today that can produce 1Gbps with > AES256 encryption at line speed? The encryption alone can be valued at > $10k > - $20k depending on who you ask. > > Best, > > > Brad > > > -----Original Message----- > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On > Behalf Of Tom DeReggi > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:24 PM > To: can...@believewireless.net; WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? > > I fully agree. > > I'll add... the value of millimeterwave is 80Ghz, to actually have a > license > > for next to free. The FCC created that for provider's benefit, not for > manufacturers to charge us more and put the savings in their pockets. The > truth is that 80Ghz takes the same cost to make as 60Ghz. But for some > reason the manufacturers try to charge s premium, a lot more for the > 80Ghz. > I get pissed off everytime I think about it. It just holds the industry > back > > for no good reason. > > We aren't to the $8000 figure yet including licenses, but we are getting > really close with Trango Apex's. Its just a matter of time, before Trango > adds 24Ghz to their line. And Dragonwave is doing 24Ghz pretty darn close > to > > the goal. Thats my point on why 80Ghz vendors need to get it togeather > and > rethink their business plans. Their high profit ride on the specialty > short > > range market, isn't going to last forever, when 24/23Ghz can do it for 1/3 > the price. Most people would rather save money. > > They are going to have to bring 80Ghz to the $8 range to keep making > sales, > before to long. > > I'm not knocking the Bridgewve technology, its a great product. Sure for > that half mile link, it can really get the highest capacity to its buyer. > But how many of those $30k links will a WISP need? Maybe 1 or 2? I can > count 500 buildings off the top of my head that can justify use of a $10k > radio. > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "can...@believewireless.net" <p...@believewireless.net> > To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 8:52 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? > > >>A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had >> the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with >> over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do >> 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. >> Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, "We really don't >> need >> a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine." >> >> We have both 60 and 80GHz Bridgewave links and Trango Giga and Apex >> links. >> Bridgewave's are definitely the way to go for short hops where they are >> cheaper than doing a licensed link. However, if Trango or Dragonwave >> offered a 24GHz link that could do 100Mbps or more for $8k, we'd be all >> over >> it and almost never think of Bridgewave. Obviously Bridgewave's SLE100 >> can >> do it at that price, but even in our urban environment, customers tend to >> be >> outside of the 1/2 mile range. >> >> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Tom DeReggi >> <wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net>wrote: >> >>> Brad, >>> >>> Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can with Dragonwave DUO combining 4 >>> links for a total of 1400mbps. And Trango Apex at 700mbps is getting >>> pretty >>> close. >>> But that is not my point. I personally do not think that peak capacity >>> is >>> the big factor in a buying decission for WISPs.. >>> Once you are in the 400mb + range, over subscription is your friend. >>> >>> What matters is getting distance, and increasing reliabilty, and >>> affording >>> to buy and install as many links as possible. >>> >>> WISPs don't need 1GB, but they could benefit from 80Ghz. Bridgewave >>> needs >>> more affordable 80Ghz models, that compete with the speeds that Apexes >>> and >>> Horizons can deliver. This is exactly why Bridgewave has been left >>> behind >>> this year in sales. WISPs are telling BRidgewave to take a hike, and >>> embracing companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that have technology >>> less >>> trouble to deploy. >>> >>> Sure if you need 1GB, and its to the building down the street, OK then, >>> Bridgewave can win that one. But 99% of the links that need to be bought >>> and >>> deployed, don't need to be 1GB. I'd rather pay 1/3 the price, and get >>> my >>> ROI in one year. >>> >>> Bridgewave also has a hidden cost. The cost to pay for speed before you >>> need >>> it, before customers are reimbursing you for it, and the finance costs >>> on >>> that. >>> Its ironic to pay finance costs on bandwdith before it is even being >>> used. >>> If I have a ROI of one year, I have a much lower finance cost per link. >>> Sure >>> if you have a RUS loan at 3-5% that probably isn't a bad problem. But at >>> typical lease fees (20%), that adds up to easily doubling the cost of >>> procurement over 3-5 years. >>> >>> I've always felt Bridgewave to be overpriced, and because of they >>> attempt >>> to >>> get top dollar for the rare circumstances where it is worth that, they >>> loose >>> huge amounts of market share, to companies like Trango and Dragonwave, >>> that >>> fit a much wider set of diverse needs. >>> >>> Tom DeReggi >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brad Belton" <b...@belwave.com> >>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> >>> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 5:49 PM >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >>> >>> >>> > Last I checked the DragonWave fell short of BridgeWave in raw >>> > throughput/payload capacity. The AR80X-AES we have deployed will >>> > produce >>> > line speed 1000Mbps with AES256 encryption. I don't think DragonWave >>> > can >>> > pull that off. If so, please share the details as we're close to >>> > deploying >>> > another BridgeWave link. >>> > >>> > Best, >>> > >>> > >>> > Brad >>> > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>> > On >>> > Behalf Of 3-dB Networks >>> > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:34 PM >>> > To: 'WISPA General List' >>> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >>> > >>> > Tom, >>> > >>> > The last quotes I have done have put Bridgewave much cheaper than >>> > Dragonwave >>> > for 1.2Gpbs... although Dragonwave by far has a range benefit to it. >>> > >>> > Daniel White >>> > 3-dB Networks >>> > http://www.3dbnetworks.com >>> > >>> > >>> >>-----Original Message----- >>> >>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>> >>On >>> >>Behalf Of Tom DeReggi >>> >>Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:51 PM >>> >>To: lakel...@gbcx.net; WISPA General List >>> >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >>> >> >>> >>Bob, >>> >> >>> >>I think you are right. (To give Ceragon credit where credit is due). >>> >>Although, I'm positive Dragonwave was the first to do it with 366mbps >>> >>per >>> >>radio ODU with Ethernet. >>> >>Ceragon was stuck at 200-250mbps per ODU for a while there. >>> >> >>> >>Its important to note that breaking the 350mbps barrier, and radio >>> >>combining >>> >>(for double) was a core accomplishment, that put the value proposition >>> >>of >>> >>6-23Ghz above that of inexistence 80Ghz technology with multiple hops, >>> >>to >>> >>deliver near equivellent capacity, at lower cost. >>> >> >>> >>Tom DeReggi >>> >>RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>> >>IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>----- Original Message ----- >>> >>From: <lakel...@gbcx.net> >>> >>To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>> >>Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:53 PM >>> >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>>I believe (but not sure) Ceragon was the first with a DPRM mount. >>> >>> >>> >>> But agree with everything else >>> >>> >>> >>> :-) >>> >>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: "Tom DeReggi" <wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net> >>> >>> >>> >>> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:32:12 >>> >>> To: WISPA General List<wireless@wispa.org> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Good advice Bob, but I'll add.... There is a purpose for each model, >>> >>and >>> >>> for >>> >>> that matter also a specific manufacturer, and all ODU is not always >>> >>the >>> >>> best >>> >>> choice. >>> >>> >>> >>> For example... Trango boasts several core benefits, for some >>> >>> circumstances. >>> >>> Its Giga Split archetiecture allows Coax installs to extend up to >>> >>1000ft. >>> >>> (Dragonwave's Coax split Archetecture, still has limits to 150-200 >>> >>feet or >>> >>> so, according to their docs.). Trango's Apex allows optional Fiber >>> >>> termination with a very easilly accessible connectors. (Dragonwave >>> >>> on >>> >>the >>> >>> other hand has the Fiber connectors poorly located, that require >>> >>taking >>> >>> the >>> >>> case apart in order to reach them.) Because of this, for long cable >>> >>> deployments, I prefer Trango. Or if on short deadline, and Freq >>> >>Coords >>> >>> not >>> >>> complete, Trango equipment can be ordered in advance of completion >>> >>because >>> >>> they can support more channels per ODU model. (For example, 18 and >>> >>> 23 >>> >>Ghz >>> >>> only have one ODU Pair choice). Its also important to note, it >>> >>should >>> >>> not >>> >>> be midunderstood the purpose of Trango Gigas's 4 ports. They are >>> >>Private >>> >>> VLAN. This is really great for when a link needs to be shared. For >>> >>> example, >>> >>> Port 1 for the customer that paid to get the link installed. Port2 >>> >>> for >>> >>the >>> >>> ISP's other traffic to serve other clients in the building. This is >>> >>> enabled >>> >>> with zero complexity, that way. The far end switch/router equipment >>> >>do >>> >>> not >>> >>> need configuration or being the same to accommodate segregation. >>> >>> This >>> >>is >>> >>> not >>> >>> useful for all installs, but in some cases, this is a unique >>> >>> benefit. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dragonwave offers different benefits... For example... The Airpair >>> >>> supports >>> >>> a whole wealth of different ODU Radios that can be interchanged with >>> >>the >>> >>> Indoor rack unit. If one doesn't buy advanced replacement >>> >>> warrantees, >>> >>its >>> >>> much cheaper to just order in an ODU seperately, than a Full outdoor >>> >>> radio. >>> >>> I'd rather float $3000 to get a replacements ODU in, than $12,000 >>> >>> for >>> >>a >>> >>> full >>> >>> Horizon. We'd use All ODU models where we have live backup links in >>> >>> place, >>> >>> and can afford to wait for a Manufacturer replacement. With that >>> >>said, >>> >>> we >>> >>> love All ODU units, it makes for a much quicker/simpler install, >>> >>> with >>> >>Zero >>> >>> Footprint needed inside. This is great for MTU buildings, where they >>> >>need >>> >>> to >>> >>> be installed in small closets, or penthouse walls. The Dragonwaves >>> >>were >>> >>> the >>> >>> first to be able to combine radios for double the capacity, so more >>> >>> expandabilty. Airpair offers 25% more capacity than the Trango >>> >>> giga, >>> >>> where >>> >>> split archetecture is needed. Dragonwave offers a dealer channel >>> >>> for >>> >>> those >>> >>> that will benefit from it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Tom DeReggi >>> >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >>> >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Bob Moldashel" <lakel...@gbcx.net> >>> >>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:37 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Well....a couple of notes... >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I personally would use an all ODU version because it makes >>> >>>> servicing >>> >>a >>> >>>> breeze and also swapping out a bad radio quick and simple. No >>> >>guessing >>> >>>> about is it the indoor unit, is it the outdoor unit, is it the >>> >>interface >>> >>>> cable??? Get an all ODU like the Dragonwave Horizon and you run >>> >>>> CAT5 >>> >>>> and you're done. If you get a cable issue you either can't log in >>> >>>> or >>> >>see >>> >>>> no handshake with your switch/router or..If one of the POE lines >>> >>>> are >>> >>bad >>> >>>> your radio will continue to reboot. Troubleshoot the radio on the >>> >>ground >>> >>>> with a patch cable and you rule out your cabling system. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Like was mentioned elsewhere here if you are concerned with theft >>> >>>> you >>> >>>> can lock the radios in place. This can be done by putting a >>> >>>> security >>> >>>> screw in place of the grounding screw and use a cable assembly to >>> >>lock >>> >>>> it up. If the theft concern is that high you should probably >>> >>>> consider >>> >>>> another location. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> With weather being a concern you could always install a second >>> >>parallel >>> >>>> link on the same antenna using a DPRM mount. Then if one link fails >>> >>the >>> >>>> other could be engaged to carry the traffic. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I do not see this link really working (high 9's reliability) >>> >>>> without >>> >>4' >>> >>>> antennas. That of course leads to new mounting issues. At 6 Ghz. >>> >>>> you >>> >>>> are looking at 6' minimum dishes. Figure 600-800 lbs per antenna >>> >>with >>> >>>> mount not to say the least about cost, shipping and installation. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I personally like Dragonwave for 2 reasons. 1 - The service >>> >>>> facility >>> >>is >>> >>>> in this part of the hemisphere which allows me to get equipment >>> >>>> overnight in emergencies. 2 - One year advanced replacement is >>> >>>> only >>> >>>> $500/year per radio. Allows me to sleep easily. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> This does not mean I do not like Ceragon. They are just doing some >>> >>>> growing pains things at the moment and most of the stuff is >>> >>>> serviced >>> >>>> overseas unless it is an interface or something simple. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Dragonwave support is very responsive though you do have to leave >>> >>your >>> >>>> name with a service and they call you back. I have installed more >>> >>than >>> >>>> 45 Dragonwave links in the past 2 years and have only had 2 >>> >>>> failures. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> There are other options but history, price or delivery will kill >>> >>>> them >>> >>as >>> >>>> an option. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> And stay away from equipment that does switching for you. Do all >>> >>>> your >>> >>>> control external to the radio. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Bob >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Paolo Di Francesco wrote: >>> >>>>> Dear All, >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back >>> >>>>> hauling >>> >>and >>> >>>>> therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are looking >>> >>>>> at >>> >>2 >>> >>>>> main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is "which >>> >>>>> one >>> >>>>> fits better for our needs"? >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Just to summarize: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> a) links are around 20-25 miles >>> >>>>> b) antennas: the smaller the better >>> >>>>> c) robustness is very important >>> >>>>> d) average life: 3 years >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the >>> >>>>> >following >>> >>>>> considerations: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well >>> >>protected >>> >>>>> from "sabotage and stealing". The "all outdoor" approach is nice >>> >>>>> but >>> >>it >>> >>>>> has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they will >>> >>have a >>> >>>>> brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will have >>> >>only >>> >>>>> half of the "banknote", so after the first or second time, they >>> >>>>> will >>> >>not >>> >>>>> spend time having something useless. >>> >>>>> 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber from >>> >>the >>> >>>>> unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge >>> >>amount >>> >>>>> or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) we >>> >>get >>> >>>>> only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the >>> >>tower, >>> >>>>> but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments welcome). >>> >>>>> 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices >>> >>somewhere >>> >>>>> else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just swapping >>> >>>>> the >>> >>>>> ODU. >>> >>>>> 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is >>> >>>>> frozen >>> >>>>> (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it does >>> >>not >>> >>>>> change much, you have to wait the better season to work on that. >>> >>>>> 5) Performances look more or less the same. >>> >>>>> 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some website, >>> >>>>> I >>> >>am >>> >>>>> still exploring this aspect >>> >>>>> 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities on this >>> >>>>> devices >>> >>or >>> >>>>> just using them as transparent bridges for your router/switch? Do >>> >>you >>> >>>>> need to reset them often? >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Comments are welcome. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Am I missing some other good brand? >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Thank you. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>----------- >>> >>>> WISPA Wants You! 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