Well Brad, I never said Bridgewave didn't have a viable market. Nor that Bridgewave wasn;t a good decission for your application. When someone actually needs a GB, its a heck of a good deal. I can give an example of a WISP that has a cell tower, that agregates 300mbps licensed links, but needs to get 1/2 mile down the street to the carrier hotel. They need that GB to get to the carrier hotel. And they didn't sweat the price. My point is that, that market is not the common high volume market. Its a niche market. Obviously they are happy with their niche market currently, or they would have lowered their prices.
I will tell you that, there will be a 80Ghz equipment manufacturer that wants the service provider typical market. And when they come, The radios won't cost $30k. They'll cost sub $5000. My point was Bridgewave's price break for models was from 100mb jump to 1 gb. When someone saturates 100mb, they don't instantly need 1 gb, 10x the capacity. There is no middle ground with Bridgewave. Thus, my comment of paying for broadband that they don't need. As far as Bridgewave with backup link? Well thats two antennas. Dragonwave with 4 links is also 2 antenna, because they use pol diversity to share the antennas. Ironically, per mbps, 4 dragonwave links cost just about the same a the 1Gb Bridgewave, the only difference is that the Dragonwave can be converted into a half capacity redundant link, if one of the radios fails. Don't get me wrong, its not ideal. Nor guaranteed spectrum channels will be available. But it allows growth, in 300mbps increments, as a WISP needs it. Plus with a 2 link Apex (1 antenna per side shared) 700mbps, its still 40% less costly than Bridgewave's GB 2ft link. And there is redundancy, (although not real time switch over), and no longer a limit in distance. No longer a risk, trying to keep the 1 degree beamwidth aligned. The market potential of the Apex is so much greater than that of the Bridgewave, looking for that tiny market segment that is less than a mile away, and needs the full 1GB. Bridgewave is loosing huge market share, for no reason. The fact is an 80Ghz 2ft dish radio, is capable of being sold at only $1000 more than its counter part capable of half mile at 60Ghz and 1 ft dish, that now sells for $11,000, at equivellent profit margin, if they wanted to. But they chose to try and charge $20k more, for something that has no cost. I do not beleive most service providers are paying it. I beleive Bridgewave instead just looses market share. But I guess I do not really know that. It would be interesting to know what percentage of Bridgewave radios sold are the $11k radios versus the $30k radios. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Belton" <b...@belwave.com> To: <can...@believewireless.net>; "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? > Tom, > > Wow?!? Four links as in eight radios or two links and four radios? > Either > way that'll require some real estate! > > You're making assumptions that 1Gbps isn't needed at the time of > installation and ROI is pushed out. Neither could be the case. (e.g. It > wasn't in our selection of BridgeWave) My guess is BridgeWave has a niche > that they are enjoying. Sure, we'd like to be able to pay less for > BridgeWave gear, but on the other hand it sets a "barrier to entry" that > immediately separates the wheat from the chaff. So to speak... > > Actually we've found oversubscription is more of a problem in the 400Mbps+ > realm as the choices in equipment that can actually deliver payloads at > that > level begin to thin out. > > Canopy-Believe, > > Granted BridgeWave is NOT a good solution by itself for a long link > requiring 99.999% uptime at full modulation. That is why BridgeWave has > made provisions to seamlessly migrate traffic over to an alternate radio > set > without any additional hardware required. So, for the client that needs > true GigE capacity between sites 40%, 50%, even 99.7% (2hrs 14min > downtime) > BridgeWave is a good fit. For the remaining 2hrs, 14min they can poke > along > at 100Mbps, 200Mbps or even 300Mbps over an alternate path. > > Best, > > > Brad > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On > Behalf Of can...@believewireless.net > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 7:53 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? > > A customer came to us looking for gigabit speeds between buildings and had > the money to pay for it. So, we quoted an 80GHz link w/2ft antennas with > over 2 hours of down time and a licensed Dragonwave link that would do > 300Mbps w/5 minutes of downtime at half the price. > Once they saw both in the proposal, the response was, "We really don't > need > a full gigabit. 300Mbps should be fine." > > We have both 60 and 80GHz Bridgewave links and Trango Giga and Apex links. > Bridgewave's are definitely the way to go for short hops where they are > cheaper than doing a licensed link. However, if Trango or Dragonwave > offered a 24GHz link that could do 100Mbps or more for $8k, we'd be all > over > it and almost never think of Bridgewave. Obviously Bridgewave's SLE100 > can > do it at that price, but even in our urban environment, customers tend to > be > outside of the 1/2 mile range. > > On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Tom DeReggi > <wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net>wrote: > >> Brad, >> >> Well, it can't with 2 radios. But it can with Dragonwave DUO combining 4 >> links for a total of 1400mbps. And Trango Apex at 700mbps is getting > pretty >> close. >> But that is not my point. I personally do not think that peak capacity is >> the big factor in a buying decission for WISPs.. >> Once you are in the 400mb + range, over subscription is your friend. >> >> What matters is getting distance, and increasing reliabilty, and >> affording >> to buy and install as many links as possible. >> >> WISPs don't need 1GB, but they could benefit from 80Ghz. Bridgewave needs >> more affordable 80Ghz models, that compete with the speeds that Apexes >> and >> Horizons can deliver. This is exactly why Bridgewave has been left behind >> this year in sales. WISPs are telling BRidgewave to take a hike, and >> embracing companies like Trango and Dragonwave, that have technology less >> trouble to deploy. >> >> Sure if you need 1GB, and its to the building down the street, OK then, >> Bridgewave can win that one. But 99% of the links that need to be bought >> and >> deployed, don't need to be 1GB. I'd rather pay 1/3 the price, and get my >> ROI in one year. >> >> Bridgewave also has a hidden cost. The cost to pay for speed before you >> need >> it, before customers are reimbursing you for it, and the finance costs on >> that. >> Its ironic to pay finance costs on bandwdith before it is even being >> used. >> If I have a ROI of one year, I have a much lower finance cost per link. >> Sure >> if you have a RUS loan at 3-5% that probably isn't a bad problem. But at >> typical lease fees (20%), that adds up to easily doubling the cost of >> procurement over 3-5 years. >> >> I've always felt Bridgewave to be overpriced, and because of they attempt >> to >> get top dollar for the rare circumstances where it is worth that, they >> loose >> huge amounts of market share, to companies like Trango and Dragonwave, >> that >> fit a much wider set of diverse needs. >> >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brad Belton" <b...@belwave.com> >> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> >> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 5:49 PM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >> >> > Last I checked the DragonWave fell short of BridgeWave in raw >> > throughput/payload capacity. The AR80X-AES we have deployed will > produce >> > line speed 1000Mbps with AES256 encryption. I don't think DragonWave > can >> > pull that off. If so, please share the details as we're close to >> > deploying >> > another BridgeWave link. >> > >> > Best, >> > >> > >> > Brad >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >> > Behalf Of 3-dB Networks >> > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:34 PM >> > To: 'WISPA General List' >> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> > >> > Tom, >> > >> > The last quotes I have done have put Bridgewave much cheaper than >> > Dragonwave >> > for 1.2Gpbs... although Dragonwave by far has a range benefit to it. >> > >> > Daniel White >> > 3-dB Networks >> > http://www.3dbnetworks.com >> > >> > >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >> >>Behalf Of Tom DeReggi >> >>Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:51 PM >> >>To: lakel...@gbcx.net; WISPA General List >> >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >> >> >>Bob, >> >> >> >>I think you are right. (To give Ceragon credit where credit is due). >> >>Although, I'm positive Dragonwave was the first to do it with 366mbps >> >>per >> >>radio ODU with Ethernet. >> >>Ceragon was stuck at 200-250mbps per ODU for a while there. >> >> >> >>Its important to note that breaking the 350mbps barrier, and radio >> >>combining >> >>(for double) was a core accomplishment, that put the value proposition >> >>of >> >>6-23Ghz above that of inexistence 80Ghz technology with multiple hops, >> >>to >> >>deliver near equivellent capacity, at lower cost. >> >> >> >>Tom DeReggi >> >>RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> >>IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >> >>From: <lakel...@gbcx.net> >> >>To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >> >>Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:53 PM >> >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >> >> >> >> >>>I believe (but not sure) Ceragon was the first with a DPRM mount. >> >>> >> >>> But agree with everything else >> >>> >> >>> :-) >> >>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: "Tom DeReggi" <wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net> >> >>> >> >>> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:32:12 >> >>> To: WISPA General List<wireless@wispa.org> >> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Good advice Bob, but I'll add.... There is a purpose for each model, >> >>and >> >>> for >> >>> that matter also a specific manufacturer, and all ODU is not always >> >>the >> >>> best >> >>> choice. >> >>> >> >>> For example... Trango boasts several core benefits, for some >> >>> circumstances. >> >>> Its Giga Split archetiecture allows Coax installs to extend up to >> >>1000ft. >> >>> (Dragonwave's Coax split Archetecture, still has limits to 150-200 >> >>feet or >> >>> so, according to their docs.). Trango's Apex allows optional Fiber >> >>> termination with a very easilly accessible connectors. (Dragonwave on >> >>the >> >>> other hand has the Fiber connectors poorly located, that require >> >>taking >> >>> the >> >>> case apart in order to reach them.) Because of this, for long cable >> >>> deployments, I prefer Trango. Or if on short deadline, and Freq >> >>Coords >> >>> not >> >>> complete, Trango equipment can be ordered in advance of completion >> >>because >> >>> they can support more channels per ODU model. (For example, 18 and 23 >> >>Ghz >> >>> only have one ODU Pair choice). Its also important to note, it >> >>should >> >>> not >> >>> be midunderstood the purpose of Trango Gigas's 4 ports. They are >> >>Private >> >>> VLAN. This is really great for when a link needs to be shared. For >> >>> example, >> >>> Port 1 for the customer that paid to get the link installed. Port2 >> >>> for >> >>the >> >>> ISP's other traffic to serve other clients in the building. This is >> >>> enabled >> >>> with zero complexity, that way. The far end switch/router equipment >> >>do >> >>> not >> >>> need configuration or being the same to accommodate segregation. This >> >>is >> >>> not >> >>> useful for all installs, but in some cases, this is a unique benefit. >> >>> >> >>> Dragonwave offers different benefits... For example... The Airpair >> >>> supports >> >>> a whole wealth of different ODU Radios that can be interchanged with >> >>the >> >>> Indoor rack unit. If one doesn't buy advanced replacement warrantees, >> >>its >> >>> much cheaper to just order in an ODU seperately, than a Full outdoor >> >>> radio. >> >>> I'd rather float $3000 to get a replacements ODU in, than $12,000 for >> >>a >> >>> full >> >>> Horizon. We'd use All ODU models where we have live backup links in >> >>> place, >> >>> and can afford to wait for a Manufacturer replacement. With that >> >>said, >> >>> we >> >>> love All ODU units, it makes for a much quicker/simpler install, with >> >>Zero >> >>> Footprint needed inside. This is great for MTU buildings, where they >> >>need >> >>> to >> >>> be installed in small closets, or penthouse walls. The Dragonwaves >> >>were >> >>> the >> >>> first to be able to combine radios for double the capacity, so more >> >>> expandabilty. Airpair offers 25% more capacity than the Trango giga, >> >>> where >> >>> split archetecture is needed. Dragonwave offers a dealer channel for >> >>> those >> >>> that will benefit from it. >> >>> >> >>> Tom DeReggi >> >>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "Bob Moldashel" <lakel...@gbcx.net> >> >>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >> >>> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 6:37 PM >> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ceragon, Dragonwave and whatelse? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> Well....a couple of notes... >> >>>> >> >>>> I personally would use an all ODU version because it makes servicing >> >>a >> >>>> breeze and also swapping out a bad radio quick and simple. No >> >>guessing >> >>>> about is it the indoor unit, is it the outdoor unit, is it the >> >>interface >> >>>> cable??? Get an all ODU like the Dragonwave Horizon and you run >> >>>> CAT5 >> >>>> and you're done. If you get a cable issue you either can't log in or >> >>see >> >>>> no handshake with your switch/router or..If one of the POE lines are >> >>bad >> >>>> your radio will continue to reboot. Troubleshoot the radio on the >> >>ground >> >>>> with a patch cable and you rule out your cabling system. >> >>>> >> >>>> Like was mentioned elsewhere here if you are concerned with theft >> >>>> you >> >>>> can lock the radios in place. This can be done by putting a security >> >>>> screw in place of the grounding screw and use a cable assembly to >> >>lock >> >>>> it up. If the theft concern is that high you should probably >> >>>> consider >> >>>> another location. >> >>>> >> >>>> With weather being a concern you could always install a second >> >>parallel >> >>>> link on the same antenna using a DPRM mount. Then if one link fails >> >>the >> >>>> other could be engaged to carry the traffic. >> >>>> >> >>>> I do not see this link really working (high 9's reliability) without >> >>4' >> >>>> antennas. That of course leads to new mounting issues. At 6 Ghz. >> >>>> you >> >>>> are looking at 6' minimum dishes. Figure 600-800 lbs per antenna >> >>with >> >>>> mount not to say the least about cost, shipping and installation. >> >>>> >> >>>> I personally like Dragonwave for 2 reasons. 1 - The service >> >>>> facility >> >>is >> >>>> in this part of the hemisphere which allows me to get equipment >> >>>> overnight in emergencies. 2 - One year advanced replacement is only >> >>>> $500/year per radio. Allows me to sleep easily. >> >>>> >> >>>> This does not mean I do not like Ceragon. They are just doing some >> >>>> growing pains things at the moment and most of the stuff is serviced >> >>>> overseas unless it is an interface or something simple. >> >>>> >> >>>> Dragonwave support is very responsive though you do have to leave >> >>your >> >>>> name with a service and they call you back. I have installed more >> >>than >> >>>> 45 Dragonwave links in the past 2 years and have only had 2 >> >>>> failures. >> >>>> >> >>>> There are other options but history, price or delivery will kill >> >>>> them >> >>as >> >>>> an option. >> >>>> >> >>>> And stay away from equipment that does switching for you. Do all >> >>>> your >> >>>> control external to the radio. >> >>>> >> >>>> Bob >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Paolo Di Francesco wrote: >> >>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> we are considering to move to licensed frequencies for back hauling >> >>and >> >>>>> therefore some hints would be really appreciated. We are looking at >> >>2 >> >>>>> main manufacturers (Ceragon/Dragonwave) so the problem is "which >> >>>>> one >> >>>>> fits better for our needs"? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Just to summarize: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> a) links are around 20-25 miles >> >>>>> b) antennas: the smaller the better >> >>>>> c) robustness is very important >> >>>>> d) average life: 3 years >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >From what I have read in the data sheets I have done the following >> >>>>> considerations: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 1) Dragonwave Horizon is nice but only if your site is well >> >>protected >> >>>>> from "sabotage and stealing". The "all outdoor" approach is nice >> >>>>> but >> >>it >> >>>>> has the drawback that if somebody takes the whole unit they will >> >>have a >> >>>>> brand new unit working. With the IDU/ODU approach they will have >> >>only >> >>>>> half of the "banknote", so after the first or second time, they >> >>>>> will >> >>not >> >>>>> spend time having something useless. >> >>>>> 2) Dragonwave Horizon can be a problem if you don't use fiber from >> >>the >> >>>>> unit down to your switch. In few words, we have sites with huge >> >>amount >> >>>>> or EM fields, so even using shielded cables (e.g. Belden 1300A) we >> >>get >> >>>>> only few ethernet megabits. So we should use fiber to go up the >> >>tower, >> >>>>> but maybe be IDU/ODU approach is more robust (comments welcome). >> >>>>> 3) All outdoor means that when you have to re-use the devices >> >>somewhere >> >>>>> else, you have to buy a whole new thing instead of just swapping >> >>>>> the >> >>>>> ODU. >> >>>>> 4) In any case the (all outdoor or IDU/ODU) when the tower is >> >>>>> frozen >> >>>>> (and when I mean frozen I mean a whole block of ice) then it does >> >>not >> >>>>> change much, you have to wait the better season to work on that. >> >>>>> 5) Performances look more or less the same. >> >>>>> 6) I don't know much about prices, I have looked on some website, I >> >>am >> >>>>> still exploring this aspect >> >>>>> 7) Is anybody using the software-switch capabilities on this >> >>>>> devices >> >>or >> >>>>> just using them as transparent bridges for your router/switch? Do >> >>you >> >>>>> need to reset them often? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Comments are welcome. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Am I missing some other good brand? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thank you. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>----------- >> >>>> WISPA Wants You! 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