Thats what I'm hoping for. Otherwise, a 10x10 fiber from TimeWarner for
$1800 is considered an upgrade in these parts!
-RickG

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:24 PM, George Rogato <wi...@oregonfast.net>wrote:

> Yeah I realize that. We're luycky that Boneville and Williams did a big
> fiber deal many years ago that put fiber all across the North West..
> Still is not easy to get access, the transport costs are quite high, but
> it's possible.
>
> maybe some of the emp[hasis on the broadband stimulus money ought to be
> pointed at getting big fiber pipes to the area or region rather than
> getting fiber to the home.
>
>
>
>
> RickG wrote:
> > George,
> > Sounds great and mus be nice but there are no facilities in the
> boondocks!
> > -RickG
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 10:15 PM, George Rogato <wi...@oregonfast.net
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Kinda high
> >> If you are lucky and you have access to fiber consider this
> >>
> >> Cogent, if you buy a GigE port and commit to 200 megs, you can have it
> >> for $5.00 per meg, or minimum of $1,000.00 per month and that comes with
> >> a whopping 200 megs, if you need to exceed 200 megs, it's just $5.00 per
> >> meg.
> >>
> >> If you get to $4,000 per month usage, then the price drops to $4.00 per
> >> meg.
> >>
> >> George
> >>
> >>
> >> Blair Davis wrote:
> >>> Some simple numbers...
> >>>
> >>> $1700/month for 10Mbits.  Much better than the $600 per 1.54Mbit I was
> >>> paying out here.
> >>>
> >>> 1Mbit per Netflix or IPTV user.
> >>>
> >>> $170 cost of bandwidth per user.
> >>>
> >>> Users out here are not going to pay that.  Period.
> >>>
> >>> The problem, out in the rural areas at least, is not delivering the
> >>> bandwidth, it is getting it at a reasonable cost.
> >>>
> >>> These apps use an order of magnitude more bandwidth than the standard
> >>> web browsing and email apps we are used to.  But the users don't and
> >>> won't understand that.
> >>>
> >>> If you went to buy a new TV and it used an order of magnitude more
> power
> >>> to run it, your electric bill would soon show you the error of your
> ways.
> >>>
> >>> The only real solution to this problem is to move to per bit pricing.
> >>> That way, users will see the cost of what they are doing and adjust
> >>> their usage to what they are willing to pay for.
> >>>
> >>> Netflix, IPTV and other apps like them simply shift the their cost of
> >>> doing business to us.  Unless we either refuse to support these apps,
> or
> >>> begin billing our users for them, it will kill us.
> >>>
> >>> The cable and dsl providers are starting to figure this out.
> >>>
> >>> Blair
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
> >>>>> Why is the wireless world happy with being 10 years behind the wired
> >>>>> world?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Depends who you are referring by stating "wireless world".
> >>>>
> >>>> The WISP providers are surely NOT "happy" with that.  They are just
> >>>> realistic about what they have available.
> >>>> And they are creative enough to understand that there are still
> markets
> >>>> willing to deal with that, because WISPs have other things to offer of
> >> equal
> >>>> or greater value, to creat a WISP market.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm also not sure the public is "happy" with that. I haven't heard one
> >>>> public advocate at Broadband public meetings advocating "Please give
> >> money
> >>>> to wireless companies so we can have slower service".  Wireless will
> be
> >> a
> >>>> part of Stimulus grants because... We can argue we'll get you service
> >>>> sooner, and we'll stretch the dollar further to serve more areas and
> >> people,
> >>>> so less people get left without being served, and more people get
> better
> >>>> service than they currently have. In the long run, with Wireless,
> >> consumers
> >>>> will have to compromise for less, in exchange for the instant
> >> gratification
> >>>> that can be gained today.
> >>>>
> >>>> WISPs deal with it because comparatively they are either broke, lazy,
> or
> >>>> impatient, in order to meet demand. Or I should say, don't want to end
> >> up
> >>>> broke.
> >>>> I'm not meaning to be derogatory in using those terms. What I mean
> is...
> >>>>
> >>>> Sure we'd all like to lay fiber.  We just don't want to wait 20 years
> >> for an
> >>>> ROI (impatient :-). We don't have millions and billions of Finance
> >> capabilty
> >>>> upfront (broke :-).
> >>>> We don't want to spend years trying to get permits and negotiating
> >> easements
> >>>> with entities that care less about advancing our cause quickly (lazy
> >> :-).
> >>>> The truth is Monopolies are willing to do all these things.  But they
> >> also
> >>>> grudgingly backout of their committments and delay as long as
> possible,
> >>>> because honestly they don't want to do it either, and are even more
> >> lazy,
> >>>> and clearly have all the time in the world, without competition
> forcing
> >> them
> >>>> to work harder.
> >>>>
> >>>> The truth is, Wireless providers DO NEED faster equipment.  And the
> >> Truth
> >>>> is, we really aren't "lazy". (I was just kidding before :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> So.... WiMax vendors,  Make us faster equipment!!! That we can Afford
> >>>> today!!!
> >>>>
> >>>> There is a lot of grant money comming up this year. Here is your
> chance
> >> for
> >>>> volume orders, from the WISP market. Give us a reason to stay wireless
> >>>> providers and not to become a fiber provider. Backhaul transport
> >> providers
> >>>> are doing their part. But I think last mile manufacturers still have
> to
> >> do a
> >>>> better job. But more importantly give grant Decission makers a reason
> to
> >>>> favor wireless. Give them speeds that public advocates will be excited
> >>>> about. And give us price points that will let us do microcells to
> >> accomplish
> >>>> top penetration.  Wimax isn;t competing against wifi anymore, they are
> >>>> competing against fiber. I admit, Its a tall order to fill.  But I
> think
> >>>> clever innovators should be able to fill it.
> >>>>
> >>>> $7 billion is not a lot to come anywhere close to helping "All"
> >> Americans
> >>>> get next generation broadband.  But $7 billion is a hech of a lot of
> >> money
> >>>> to inject into an ISP manufacturer industry. Lets just say $1 billion
> of
> >> it
> >>>> would go to Wireless infrastructure. Thats a lot of gear.  Lets start
> >>>> getting creative with those volume order low price offers? How low can
> >> you
> >>>> go to get a peice of that $billion?
> >>>>
> >>>> Manufacturers, Let us know! The industry is writing their grant
> >> proposals
> >>>> now.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom DeReggi
> >>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> >>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Kevin Suitor" <ksui...@redlinecommunications.com>
> >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
> >>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 3:23 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Folks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I seem to have too much time on my hands since I'm on vacation.  This
> >>>>> thread prompted me to put a quick back of the napkin ROI analysis
> >>>>> together to see which service options I'd want to be pushing on the
> >>>>> market.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What I did was review Bell Canada's service offer - why, because they
> >>>>> offer Wireless, DSL & Fiber based Internet services in competition to
> >>>>> Rogers Cable and Cogeco Cable (ON) and Videotron and Cogeco Cable(Qc)
> >>>>> along with a variety of WISPs, satellite providers, in other words
> the
> >>>>> entire spectrum of competition.  As many of you may know Canada ranks
> >> in
> >>>>> the top 10 worldwide for broadband penetration according to the
> latest
> >>>>> OECD rankings with 23.8% BB penetration, the United States ranked
> 15th
> >>>>> with 19.6% penetration.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I opted not to include their wireless offer in the model.  For the
> >>>>> record their 512/512 Portable Internet service using an AC powered
> >>>>> indoor CPE as the terminal device selling for $17.95/month; they
> offer
> >> a
> >>>>> 2000/800 Rural service with either indoor or outdoor CPE beginning at
> >>>>> $40/month; and a 3000/1000 Portable using the same indoor CPE as in
> the
> >>>>> first offer.  All CPE are sold at $99 to the customer.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What I've done is outline the UL/DL speeds, cost per month, and a
> >>>>> sliding scale of oversubscription rates (actual rate used by Bell
> seems
> >>>>> to be between 20 and 40 based upon historical data depending on
> take-up
> >>>>> rate in an area.  This then generates a kbps / subscriber figure
> which
> >>>>> was then divided into the capacity per sector (I'm using the average
> >>>>> real world sector capacity from our worldwide base of 7 MHz RedMAX
> >>>>> customers as reported by our Redline Management Suite application
> that
> >>>>> we use to monitor production networks under a professional services
> >>>>> agreement).  I then divided this by the avg kbps/client to calculate
> >> the
> >>>>> maximum subscribers per sector.  I then took the peak subs multiplied
> >> by
> >>>>> monthly ARPU to calculate the monthly and annual peak revenue stream
> >> per
> >>>>> sector.  The required CAPEX per sector was calculated based upon a
> >>>>> sector controller, shared common costs (GPS, UPS, tower climb, and
> >> other
> >>>>> site acquisition costs - WW avg.) and the cost of the number of CPE
> >>>>> required by the peak subscriber calculation.  The ROI in months is
> the
> >>>>> CAPEX divided by the monthly ARPU.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've highlighted the sweet spot avg 18 month ROI lines in each model
> >>>>> that indicates with between 19 and 229 subscribers, depending upon
> the
> >>>>> SLA you'd be able to achieve and ROI acceptable to almost any
> financier
> >>>>> using WiMAX.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers!
> >>>>> Kevin
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> NOTE: Modeled upon Bell Canada's Internet Service offer when using a
> >>>>> WiMAX BTS to deliver the stated SLAs (all are best effort,
> residential
> >>>>> services on a 7 MHz channel with mix of LOS and NLOS customers):
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Monthly Max Subs per
> >>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI
> >>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription
> >>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded
> >>>>> sector (months)
> >>>>> $    17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 40 25
> >>>>> 640 $          11,488.00 $     137,856.00 $
> >>>>> 300,750 26.17949
> >>>>> $    27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 40 70
> >>>>> 229 $            6,388.57 $       76,662.86 $
> >>>>> 115,607 18.09593
> >>>>> $    37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 40 200
> >>>>> 80 $            3,036.00 $       36,432.00 $
> >>>>> 48,750 16.05731
> >>>>> $    42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 40 275
> >>>>> 58 $            2,498.91 $       29,986.91 $
> >>>>> 38,932 15.57953
> >>>>> $    72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 40 425
> >>>>> 38 $            2,746.35 $       32,956.24 $
> >>>>> 29,691 10.81113
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Monthly Max Subs per
> >>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI
> >>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription
> >>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded
> >>>>> sector (months)
> >>>>> $    17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 30 33
> >>>>> 480 $            8,616.00 $     103,392.00 $
> >>>>> 228,750 26.54944
> >>>>> $    27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 30 93
> >>>>> 171 $            4,791.43 $       57,497.14 $
> >>>>> 89,893 18.76118
> >>>>> $    37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 30 267
> >>>>> 60 $            2,277.00 $       27,324.00 $
> >>>>> 39,750 17.45718
> >>>>> $    42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 30 367
> >>>>> 44 $            1,874.18 $       22,490.18 $
> >>>>> 32,386 17.28027
> >>>>> $    72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 30 567
> >>>>> 28 $            2,059.76 $       24,717.18 $
> >>>>> 25,456 12.35864
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Monthly Max Subs per
> >>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI
> >>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription
> >>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded
> >>>>> sector (months)
> >>>>> $    17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 20 50
> >>>>> 320 $            5,744.00 $       68,928.00 $
> >>>>> 156,750 27.28935
> >>>>> $    27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 20 140
> >>>>> 114 $            3,194.29 $       38,331.43 $
> >>>>> 64,179 20.09168
> >>>>> $    37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 20 400
> >>>>> 40 $            1,518.00 $       18,216.00 $
> >>>>> 30,750 20.25692
> >>>>> $    42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 20 550
> >>>>> 29 $            1,249.45 $       14,993.45 $
> >>>>> 25,841 20.68175
> >>>>> $    72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 20 850
> >>>>> 19 $            1,373.18 $       16,478.12 $
> >>>>> 21,221 15.45365
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> >> On
> >>>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:58 PM
> >>>>> To: WISPA General List
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2 megs is yesterday's news.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> U-Verse is 18/1.5
> >>>>> FiOS is 50/20
> >>>>> Charter has 60/5
> >>>>> Comcast has 50/10
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2 megs is 36 times faster than 56k.  Charter is 30 times faster than
> >>>>> that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why is the wireless world happy with being 10 years behind the wired
> >>>>> world?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----
> >>>>> Mike Hammett
> >>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> From: "Kevin Suitor" <ksui...@redlinecommunications.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 10:42 AM
> >>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> We have customers worldwide who operate sectors typically with
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> hundreds
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> of residential clients with 2 Mbps downlink / 256 or 512 kbps uplink
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> some with who run entry level service (by NA standards) of 384 kbps
> >>>>>> downlink / 128 kbps uplink that have an average of 250 clients per
> >>>>>> sector with 6 sectors per BTS in an urban market.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than other MACs used in
> >>>>>> wireless networking.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best Regards,
> >>>>>> Kevin
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org
> ]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> On
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 2:20 PM
> >>>>>> To: WISPA General List
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> More troll than substance but I wouldn't put more than 30 users on a
> >>>>>> WiMAX
> >>>>>> AP anyway...  not enough bandwidth.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----
> >>>>>> Mike Hammett
> >>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> From: "Jeff Booher" <jefftho...@fastmail.fm>
> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:28 AM
> >>>>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It is not the same gear by any means. Tranzeo's AP is a micro base
> >>>>>>> station,
> >>>>>>> that only supports 30 subscribers.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Jeff
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:
> wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> On
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:34 PM
> >>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm certainly interested in ptmp.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The Tranzeo gear is the same as Aperto isn't it?
> >>>>>>> marlon
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com>
> >>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:35 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ligowave its ptp in 3.65...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Might wanna look at tranzeo for 3.65 ptmp
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Gino A. Villarini
> >>>>>>>> g...@aeronetpr.com
> >>>>>>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> >>>>>>>> tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:
> wireless-boun...@wispa.org
> >> ]
> >>>>>> On
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Leon Zetekoff
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 9:32 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Marlon...I'd look at the Ligowave stuff similar in principle to
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> UBNT stuff but I think much better. That's what I'd do today.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Take care leon
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I'm looking into this too.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> So far I can't find a solution for rural towers.  A 3 sector
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> install
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> at $20k?  Not to service the 20 people that will be able to even
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> see
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> that tower....
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Anyone have any better ideas?
> >>>>>>>>> marlon
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>>> From: "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com>
> >>>>>>>>> To: "Motorola Canopy User Group" <motor...@wispa.org>; "WISPA
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>> General
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> List"
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> <wireless@wispa.org>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:55 AM
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Fellow operators:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Any updates on your experienes with 3.65 gear? PMP and PTP?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Any updates on experiences with:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Redline, Aperto, Tranzeo, Vecima, Alvarion, Ligowave, Solectek,
> >>>>>>>>>> Airspan ???
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Gino A. Villarini
> >>>>>>>>>> g...@aeronetpr.com
> >>>>>>>>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> >>>>>>>>>> tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> --------
> >>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >>>>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> --------
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> ----
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ----
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >>>>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
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> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> ----
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> >>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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> >>>>>>>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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> >>>>>>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
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> >>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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> >>>>>>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
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> >>>>>
> >>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
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>
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