Thats what I'm hoping for. Otherwise, a 10x10 fiber from TimeWarner for $1800 is considered an upgrade in these parts! -RickG
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:24 PM, George Rogato <[email protected]>wrote: > Yeah I realize that. We're luycky that Boneville and Williams did a big > fiber deal many years ago that put fiber all across the North West.. > Still is not easy to get access, the transport costs are quite high, but > it's possible. > > maybe some of the emp[hasis on the broadband stimulus money ought to be > pointed at getting big fiber pipes to the area or region rather than > getting fiber to the home. > > > > > RickG wrote: > > George, > > Sounds great and mus be nice but there are no facilities in the > boondocks! > > -RickG > > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 10:15 PM, George Rogato <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > >> Kinda high > >> If you are lucky and you have access to fiber consider this > >> > >> Cogent, if you buy a GigE port and commit to 200 megs, you can have it > >> for $5.00 per meg, or minimum of $1,000.00 per month and that comes with > >> a whopping 200 megs, if you need to exceed 200 megs, it's just $5.00 per > >> meg. > >> > >> If you get to $4,000 per month usage, then the price drops to $4.00 per > >> meg. > >> > >> George > >> > >> > >> Blair Davis wrote: > >>> Some simple numbers... > >>> > >>> $1700/month for 10Mbits. Much better than the $600 per 1.54Mbit I was > >>> paying out here. > >>> > >>> 1Mbit per Netflix or IPTV user. > >>> > >>> $170 cost of bandwidth per user. > >>> > >>> Users out here are not going to pay that. Period. > >>> > >>> The problem, out in the rural areas at least, is not delivering the > >>> bandwidth, it is getting it at a reasonable cost. > >>> > >>> These apps use an order of magnitude more bandwidth than the standard > >>> web browsing and email apps we are used to. But the users don't and > >>> won't understand that. > >>> > >>> If you went to buy a new TV and it used an order of magnitude more > power > >>> to run it, your electric bill would soon show you the error of your > ways. > >>> > >>> The only real solution to this problem is to move to per bit pricing. > >>> That way, users will see the cost of what they are doing and adjust > >>> their usage to what they are willing to pay for. > >>> > >>> Netflix, IPTV and other apps like them simply shift the their cost of > >>> doing business to us. Unless we either refuse to support these apps, > or > >>> begin billing our users for them, it will kill us. > >>> > >>> The cable and dsl providers are starting to figure this out. > >>> > >>> Blair > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Tom DeReggi wrote: > >>>>> Why is the wireless world happy with being 10 years behind the wired > >>>>> world? > >>>>> > >>>> Depends who you are referring by stating "wireless world". > >>>> > >>>> The WISP providers are surely NOT "happy" with that. They are just > >>>> realistic about what they have available. > >>>> And they are creative enough to understand that there are still > markets > >>>> willing to deal with that, because WISPs have other things to offer of > >> equal > >>>> or greater value, to creat a WISP market. > >>>> > >>>> I'm also not sure the public is "happy" with that. I haven't heard one > >>>> public advocate at Broadband public meetings advocating "Please give > >> money > >>>> to wireless companies so we can have slower service". Wireless will > be > >> a > >>>> part of Stimulus grants because... We can argue we'll get you service > >>>> sooner, and we'll stretch the dollar further to serve more areas and > >> people, > >>>> so less people get left without being served, and more people get > better > >>>> service than they currently have. In the long run, with Wireless, > >> consumers > >>>> will have to compromise for less, in exchange for the instant > >> gratification > >>>> that can be gained today. > >>>> > >>>> WISPs deal with it because comparatively they are either broke, lazy, > or > >>>> impatient, in order to meet demand. Or I should say, don't want to end > >> up > >>>> broke. > >>>> I'm not meaning to be derogatory in using those terms. What I mean > is... > >>>> > >>>> Sure we'd all like to lay fiber. We just don't want to wait 20 years > >> for an > >>>> ROI (impatient :-). We don't have millions and billions of Finance > >> capabilty > >>>> upfront (broke :-). > >>>> We don't want to spend years trying to get permits and negotiating > >> easements > >>>> with entities that care less about advancing our cause quickly (lazy > >> :-). > >>>> The truth is Monopolies are willing to do all these things. But they > >> also > >>>> grudgingly backout of their committments and delay as long as > possible, > >>>> because honestly they don't want to do it either, and are even more > >> lazy, > >>>> and clearly have all the time in the world, without competition > forcing > >> them > >>>> to work harder. > >>>> > >>>> The truth is, Wireless providers DO NEED faster equipment. And the > >> Truth > >>>> is, we really aren't "lazy". (I was just kidding before :-) > >>>> > >>>> So.... WiMax vendors, Make us faster equipment!!! That we can Afford > >>>> today!!! > >>>> > >>>> There is a lot of grant money comming up this year. Here is your > chance > >> for > >>>> volume orders, from the WISP market. Give us a reason to stay wireless > >>>> providers and not to become a fiber provider. Backhaul transport > >> providers > >>>> are doing their part. But I think last mile manufacturers still have > to > >> do a > >>>> better job. But more importantly give grant Decission makers a reason > to > >>>> favor wireless. Give them speeds that public advocates will be excited > >>>> about. And give us price points that will let us do microcells to > >> accomplish > >>>> top penetration. Wimax isn;t competing against wifi anymore, they are > >>>> competing against fiber. I admit, Its a tall order to fill. But I > think > >>>> clever innovators should be able to fill it. > >>>> > >>>> $7 billion is not a lot to come anywhere close to helping "All" > >> Americans > >>>> get next generation broadband. But $7 billion is a hech of a lot of > >> money > >>>> to inject into an ISP manufacturer industry. Lets just say $1 billion > of > >> it > >>>> would go to Wireless infrastructure. Thats a lot of gear. Lets start > >>>> getting creative with those volume order low price offers? How low can > >> you > >>>> go to get a peice of that $billion? > >>>> > >>>> Manufacturers, Let us know! The industry is writing their grant > >> proposals > >>>> now. > >>>> > >>>> Tom DeReggi > >>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > >>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Kevin Suitor" <[email protected]> > >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 3:23 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Folks, > >>>>> > >>>>> I seem to have too much time on my hands since I'm on vacation. This > >>>>> thread prompted me to put a quick back of the napkin ROI analysis > >>>>> together to see which service options I'd want to be pushing on the > >>>>> market. > >>>>> > >>>>> What I did was review Bell Canada's service offer - why, because they > >>>>> offer Wireless, DSL & Fiber based Internet services in competition to > >>>>> Rogers Cable and Cogeco Cable (ON) and Videotron and Cogeco Cable(Qc) > >>>>> along with a variety of WISPs, satellite providers, in other words > the > >>>>> entire spectrum of competition. As many of you may know Canada ranks > >> in > >>>>> the top 10 worldwide for broadband penetration according to the > latest > >>>>> OECD rankings with 23.8% BB penetration, the United States ranked > 15th > >>>>> with 19.6% penetration. > >>>>> > >>>>> I opted not to include their wireless offer in the model. For the > >>>>> record their 512/512 Portable Internet service using an AC powered > >>>>> indoor CPE as the terminal device selling for $17.95/month; they > offer > >> a > >>>>> 2000/800 Rural service with either indoor or outdoor CPE beginning at > >>>>> $40/month; and a 3000/1000 Portable using the same indoor CPE as in > the > >>>>> first offer. All CPE are sold at $99 to the customer. > >>>>> > >>>>> What I've done is outline the UL/DL speeds, cost per month, and a > >>>>> sliding scale of oversubscription rates (actual rate used by Bell > seems > >>>>> to be between 20 and 40 based upon historical data depending on > take-up > >>>>> rate in an area. This then generates a kbps / subscriber figure > which > >>>>> was then divided into the capacity per sector (I'm using the average > >>>>> real world sector capacity from our worldwide base of 7 MHz RedMAX > >>>>> customers as reported by our Redline Management Suite application > that > >>>>> we use to monitor production networks under a professional services > >>>>> agreement). I then divided this by the avg kbps/client to calculate > >> the > >>>>> maximum subscribers per sector. I then took the peak subs multiplied > >> by > >>>>> monthly ARPU to calculate the monthly and annual peak revenue stream > >> per > >>>>> sector. The required CAPEX per sector was calculated based upon a > >>>>> sector controller, shared common costs (GPS, UPS, tower climb, and > >> other > >>>>> site acquisition costs - WW avg.) and the cost of the number of CPE > >>>>> required by the peak subscriber calculation. The ROI in months is > the > >>>>> CAPEX divided by the monthly ARPU. > >>>>> > >>>>> I've highlighted the sweet spot avg 18 month ROI lines in each model > >>>>> that indicates with between 19 and 229 subscribers, depending upon > the > >>>>> SLA you'd be able to achieve and ROI acceptable to almost any > financier > >>>>> using WiMAX. > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers! > >>>>> Kevin > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> NOTE: Modeled upon Bell Canada's Internet Service offer when using a > >>>>> WiMAX BTS to deliver the stated SLAs (all are best effort, > residential > >>>>> services on a 7 MHz channel with mix of LOS and NLOS customers): > >>>>> > >>>>> Monthly Max Subs per > >>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI > >>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription > >>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded > >>>>> sector (months) > >>>>> $ 17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 40 25 > >>>>> 640 $ 11,488.00 $ 137,856.00 $ > >>>>> 300,750 26.17949 > >>>>> $ 27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 40 70 > >>>>> 229 $ 6,388.57 $ 76,662.86 $ > >>>>> 115,607 18.09593 > >>>>> $ 37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 40 200 > >>>>> 80 $ 3,036.00 $ 36,432.00 $ > >>>>> 48,750 16.05731 > >>>>> $ 42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 40 275 > >>>>> 58 $ 2,498.91 $ 29,986.91 $ > >>>>> 38,932 15.57953 > >>>>> $ 72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 40 425 > >>>>> 38 $ 2,746.35 $ 32,956.24 $ > >>>>> 29,691 10.81113 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Monthly Max Subs per > >>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI > >>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription > >>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded > >>>>> sector (months) > >>>>> $ 17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 30 33 > >>>>> 480 $ 8,616.00 $ 103,392.00 $ > >>>>> 228,750 26.54944 > >>>>> $ 27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 30 93 > >>>>> 171 $ 4,791.43 $ 57,497.14 $ > >>>>> 89,893 18.76118 > >>>>> $ 37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 30 267 > >>>>> 60 $ 2,277.00 $ 27,324.00 $ > >>>>> 39,750 17.45718 > >>>>> $ 42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 30 367 > >>>>> 44 $ 1,874.18 $ 22,490.18 $ > >>>>> 32,386 17.28027 > >>>>> $ 72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 30 567 > >>>>> 28 $ 2,059.76 $ 24,717.18 $ > >>>>> 25,456 12.35864 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Monthly Max Subs per > >>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI > >>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription > >>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded > >>>>> sector (months) > >>>>> $ 17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 20 50 > >>>>> 320 $ 5,744.00 $ 68,928.00 $ > >>>>> 156,750 27.28935 > >>>>> $ 27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 20 140 > >>>>> 114 $ 3,194.29 $ 38,331.43 $ > >>>>> 64,179 20.09168 > >>>>> $ 37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 20 400 > >>>>> 40 $ 1,518.00 $ 18,216.00 $ > >>>>> 30,750 20.25692 > >>>>> $ 42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 20 550 > >>>>> 29 $ 1,249.45 $ 14,993.45 $ > >>>>> 25,841 20.68175 > >>>>> $ 72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 20 850 > >>>>> 19 $ 1,373.18 $ 16,478.12 $ > >>>>> 21,221 15.45365 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > >> On > >>>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett > >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:58 PM > >>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>> > >>>>> 2 megs is yesterday's news. > >>>>> > >>>>> U-Verse is 18/1.5 > >>>>> FiOS is 50/20 > >>>>> Charter has 60/5 > >>>>> Comcast has 50/10 > >>>>> > >>>>> 2 megs is 36 times faster than 56k. Charter is 30 times faster than > >>>>> that. > >>>>> > >>>>> Why is the wireless world happy with being 10 years behind the wired > >>>>> world? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- > >>>>> Mike Hammett > >>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions > >>>>> http://www.ics-il.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> From: "Kevin Suitor" <[email protected]> > >>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 10:42 AM > >>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> We have customers worldwide who operate sectors typically with > >>>>>> > >>>>> hundreds > >>>>> > >>>>>> of residential clients with 2 Mbps downlink / 256 or 512 kbps uplink > >>>>>> > >>>>> and > >>>>> > >>>>>> some with who run entry level service (by NA standards) of 384 kbps > >>>>>> downlink / 128 kbps uplink that have an average of 250 clients per > >>>>>> sector with 6 sectors per BTS in an urban market. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than other MACs used in > >>>>>> wireless networking. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best Regards, > >>>>>> Kevin > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected] > ] > >>>>>> > >>>>> On > >>>>> > >>>>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 2:20 PM > >>>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> More troll than substance but I wouldn't put more than 30 users on a > >>>>>> WiMAX > >>>>>> AP anyway... not enough bandwidth. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----- > >>>>>> Mike Hammett > >>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions > >>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> From: "Jeff Booher" <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:28 AM > >>>>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> It is not the same gear by any means. Tranzeo's AP is a micro base > >>>>>>> station, > >>>>>>> that only supports 30 subscribers. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> - > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Jeff > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> On > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer > >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:34 PM > >>>>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm certainly interested in ptmp. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The Tranzeo gear is the same as Aperto isn't it? > >>>>>>> marlon > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Gino Villarini" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:35 PM > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ligowave its ptp in 3.65... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Might wanna look at tranzeo for 3.65 ptmp > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Gino A. Villarini > >>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > >>>>>>>> tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected] > >> ] > >>>>>> On > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Leon Zetekoff > >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 9:32 PM > >>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Marlon...I'd look at the Ligowave stuff similar in principle to > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> UBNT stuff but I think much better. That's what I'd do today. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Take care leon > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Marlon K. Schafer wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I'm looking into this too. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> So far I can't find a solution for rural towers. A 3 sector > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> install > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> at $20k? Not to service the 20 people that will be able to even > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>> see > >>>>> > >>>>>>>>> that tower.... > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Anyone have any better ideas? > >>>>>>>>> marlon > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> From: "Gino Villarini" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>>> To: "Motorola Canopy User Group" <[email protected]>; "WISPA > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>> General > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> List" > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:55 AM > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Fellow operators: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Any updates on your experienes with 3.65 gear? PMP and PTP? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Any updates on experiences with: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Redline, Aperto, Tranzeo, Vecima, Alvarion, Ligowave, Solectek, > >>>>>>>>>> Airspan ??? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Gino A. Villarini > >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > >>>>>>>>>> tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>> -------- > >>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! > >>>>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>> -------- > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > >>>>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>> ---- > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> ---- > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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