We're in total agreement there. I keep getting asked by my customers what the stimulus plan will do for our area - I chuckle and say "let's hope for capacity to come our way". Of course, I dont really believe it
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:36 PM, George Rogato <[email protected]>wrote: > Rick > Sadly I am not hearing any emphasis on fiber to the independent > provider, just high bandwidth to the consumer. > > > RickG wrote: > > Thats what I'm hoping for. Otherwise, a 10x10 fiber from TimeWarner for > > $1800 is considered an upgrade in these parts! > > -RickG > > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 12:24 PM, George Rogato <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > >> Yeah I realize that. We're luycky that Boneville and Williams did a big > >> fiber deal many years ago that put fiber all across the North West.. > >> Still is not easy to get access, the transport costs are quite high, but > >> it's possible. > >> > >> maybe some of the emp[hasis on the broadband stimulus money ought to be > >> pointed at getting big fiber pipes to the area or region rather than > >> getting fiber to the home. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> RickG wrote: > >>> George, > >>> Sounds great and mus be nice but there are no facilities in the > >> boondocks! > >>> -RickG > >>> > >>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 10:15 PM, George Rogato <[email protected] > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Kinda high > >>>> If you are lucky and you have access to fiber consider this > >>>> > >>>> Cogent, if you buy a GigE port and commit to 200 megs, you can have it > >>>> for $5.00 per meg, or minimum of $1,000.00 per month and that comes > with > >>>> a whopping 200 megs, if you need to exceed 200 megs, it's just $5.00 > per > >>>> meg. > >>>> > >>>> If you get to $4,000 per month usage, then the price drops to $4.00 > per > >>>> meg. > >>>> > >>>> George > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Blair Davis wrote: > >>>>> Some simple numbers... > >>>>> > >>>>> $1700/month for 10Mbits. Much better than the $600 per 1.54Mbit I > was > >>>>> paying out here. > >>>>> > >>>>> 1Mbit per Netflix or IPTV user. > >>>>> > >>>>> $170 cost of bandwidth per user. > >>>>> > >>>>> Users out here are not going to pay that. Period. > >>>>> > >>>>> The problem, out in the rural areas at least, is not delivering the > >>>>> bandwidth, it is getting it at a reasonable cost. > >>>>> > >>>>> These apps use an order of magnitude more bandwidth than the standard > >>>>> web browsing and email apps we are used to. But the users don't and > >>>>> won't understand that. > >>>>> > >>>>> If you went to buy a new TV and it used an order of magnitude more > >> power > >>>>> to run it, your electric bill would soon show you the error of your > >> ways. > >>>>> The only real solution to this problem is to move to per bit pricing. > >>>>> That way, users will see the cost of what they are doing and adjust > >>>>> their usage to what they are willing to pay for. > >>>>> > >>>>> Netflix, IPTV and other apps like them simply shift the their cost of > >>>>> doing business to us. Unless we either refuse to support these apps, > >> or > >>>>> begin billing our users for them, it will kill us. > >>>>> > >>>>> The cable and dsl providers are starting to figure this out. > >>>>> > >>>>> Blair > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Tom DeReggi wrote: > >>>>>>> Why is the wireless world happy with being 10 years behind the > wired > >>>>>>> world? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> Depends who you are referring by stating "wireless world". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The WISP providers are surely NOT "happy" with that. They are just > >>>>>> realistic about what they have available. > >>>>>> And they are creative enough to understand that there are still > >> markets > >>>>>> willing to deal with that, because WISPs have other things to offer > of > >>>> equal > >>>>>> or greater value, to creat a WISP market. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm also not sure the public is "happy" with that. I haven't heard > one > >>>>>> public advocate at Broadband public meetings advocating "Please give > >>>> money > >>>>>> to wireless companies so we can have slower service". Wireless will > >> be > >>>> a > >>>>>> part of Stimulus grants because... We can argue we'll get you > service > >>>>>> sooner, and we'll stretch the dollar further to serve more areas and > >>>> people, > >>>>>> so less people get left without being served, and more people get > >> better > >>>>>> service than they currently have. In the long run, with Wireless, > >>>> consumers > >>>>>> will have to compromise for less, in exchange for the instant > >>>> gratification > >>>>>> that can be gained today. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> WISPs deal with it because comparatively they are either broke, > lazy, > >> or > >>>>>> impatient, in order to meet demand. Or I should say, don't want to > end > >>>> up > >>>>>> broke. > >>>>>> I'm not meaning to be derogatory in using those terms. What I mean > >> is... > >>>>>> Sure we'd all like to lay fiber. We just don't want to wait 20 > years > >>>> for an > >>>>>> ROI (impatient :-). We don't have millions and billions of Finance > >>>> capabilty > >>>>>> upfront (broke :-). > >>>>>> We don't want to spend years trying to get permits and negotiating > >>>> easements > >>>>>> with entities that care less about advancing our cause quickly (lazy > >>>> :-). > >>>>>> The truth is Monopolies are willing to do all these things. But > they > >>>> also > >>>>>> grudgingly backout of their committments and delay as long as > >> possible, > >>>>>> because honestly they don't want to do it either, and are even more > >>>> lazy, > >>>>>> and clearly have all the time in the world, without competition > >> forcing > >>>> them > >>>>>> to work harder. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The truth is, Wireless providers DO NEED faster equipment. And the > >>>> Truth > >>>>>> is, we really aren't "lazy". (I was just kidding before :-) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So.... WiMax vendors, Make us faster equipment!!! That we can > Afford > >>>>>> today!!! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There is a lot of grant money comming up this year. Here is your > >> chance > >>>> for > >>>>>> volume orders, from the WISP market. Give us a reason to stay > wireless > >>>>>> providers and not to become a fiber provider. Backhaul transport > >>>> providers > >>>>>> are doing their part. But I think last mile manufacturers still have > >> to > >>>> do a > >>>>>> better job. But more importantly give grant Decission makers a > reason > >> to > >>>>>> favor wireless. Give them speeds that public advocates will be > excited > >>>>>> about. And give us price points that will let us do microcells to > >>>> accomplish > >>>>>> top penetration. Wimax isn;t competing against wifi anymore, they > are > >>>>>> competing against fiber. I admit, Its a tall order to fill. But I > >> think > >>>>>> clever innovators should be able to fill it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> $7 billion is not a lot to come anywhere close to helping "All" > >>>> Americans > >>>>>> get next generation broadband. But $7 billion is a hech of a lot of > >>>> money > >>>>>> to inject into an ISP manufacturer industry. Lets just say $1 > billion > >> of > >>>> it > >>>>>> would go to Wireless infrastructure. Thats a lot of gear. Lets > start > >>>>>> getting creative with those volume order low price offers? How low > can > >>>> you > >>>>>> go to get a peice of that $billion? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Manufacturers, Let us know! The industry is writing their grant > >>>> proposals > >>>>>> now. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Tom DeReggi > >>>>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > >>>>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: "Kevin Suitor" <[email protected]> > >>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 3:23 PM > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Folks, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I seem to have too much time on my hands since I'm on vacation. > This > >>>>>>> thread prompted me to put a quick back of the napkin ROI analysis > >>>>>>> together to see which service options I'd want to be pushing on the > >>>>>>> market. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> What I did was review Bell Canada's service offer - why, because > they > >>>>>>> offer Wireless, DSL & Fiber based Internet services in competition > to > >>>>>>> Rogers Cable and Cogeco Cable (ON) and Videotron and Cogeco > Cable(Qc) > >>>>>>> along with a variety of WISPs, satellite providers, in other words > >> the > >>>>>>> entire spectrum of competition. As many of you may know Canada > ranks > >>>> in > >>>>>>> the top 10 worldwide for broadband penetration according to the > >> latest > >>>>>>> OECD rankings with 23.8% BB penetration, the United States ranked > >> 15th > >>>>>>> with 19.6% penetration. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I opted not to include their wireless offer in the model. For the > >>>>>>> record their 512/512 Portable Internet service using an AC powered > >>>>>>> indoor CPE as the terminal device selling for $17.95/month; they > >> offer > >>>> a > >>>>>>> 2000/800 Rural service with either indoor or outdoor CPE beginning > at > >>>>>>> $40/month; and a 3000/1000 Portable using the same indoor CPE as in > >> the > >>>>>>> first offer. All CPE are sold at $99 to the customer. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> What I've done is outline the UL/DL speeds, cost per month, and a > >>>>>>> sliding scale of oversubscription rates (actual rate used by Bell > >> seems > >>>>>>> to be between 20 and 40 based upon historical data depending on > >> take-up > >>>>>>> rate in an area. This then generates a kbps / subscriber figure > >> which > >>>>>>> was then divided into the capacity per sector (I'm using the > average > >>>>>>> real world sector capacity from our worldwide base of 7 MHz RedMAX > >>>>>>> customers as reported by our Redline Management Suite application > >> that > >>>>>>> we use to monitor production networks under a professional services > >>>>>>> agreement). I then divided this by the avg kbps/client to > calculate > >>>> the > >>>>>>> maximum subscribers per sector. I then took the peak subs > multiplied > >>>> by > >>>>>>> monthly ARPU to calculate the monthly and annual peak revenue > stream > >>>> per > >>>>>>> sector. The required CAPEX per sector was calculated based upon a > >>>>>>> sector controller, shared common costs (GPS, UPS, tower climb, and > >>>> other > >>>>>>> site acquisition costs - WW avg.) and the cost of the number of CPE > >>>>>>> required by the peak subscriber calculation. The ROI in months is > >> the > >>>>>>> CAPEX divided by the monthly ARPU. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I've highlighted the sweet spot avg 18 month ROI lines in each > model > >>>>>>> that indicates with between 19 and 229 subscribers, depending upon > >> the > >>>>>>> SLA you'd be able to achieve and ROI acceptable to almost any > >> financier > >>>>>>> using WiMAX. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cheers! > >>>>>>> Kevin > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> NOTE: Modeled upon Bell Canada's Internet Service offer when using > a > >>>>>>> WiMAX BTS to deliver the stated SLAs (all are best effort, > >> residential > >>>>>>> services on a 7 MHz channel with mix of LOS and NLOS customers): > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Monthly Max Subs per > >>>>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI > >>>>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription > >>>>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded > >>>>>>> sector (months) > >>>>>>> $ 17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 40 25 > >>>>>>> 640 $ 11,488.00 $ 137,856.00 $ > >>>>>>> 300,750 26.17949 > >>>>>>> $ 27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 40 70 > >>>>>>> 229 $ 6,388.57 $ 76,662.86 $ > >>>>>>> 115,607 18.09593 > >>>>>>> $ 37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 40 200 > >>>>>>> 80 $ 3,036.00 $ 36,432.00 $ > >>>>>>> 48,750 16.05731 > >>>>>>> $ 42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 40 275 > >>>>>>> 58 $ 2,498.91 $ 29,986.91 $ > >>>>>>> 38,932 15.57953 > >>>>>>> $ 72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 40 425 > >>>>>>> 38 $ 2,746.35 $ 32,956.24 $ > >>>>>>> 29,691 10.81113 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Monthly Max Subs per > >>>>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI > >>>>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription > >>>>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded > >>>>>>> sector (months) > >>>>>>> $ 17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 30 33 > >>>>>>> 480 $ 8,616.00 $ 103,392.00 $ > >>>>>>> 228,750 26.54944 > >>>>>>> $ 27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 30 93 > >>>>>>> 171 $ 4,791.43 $ 57,497.14 $ > >>>>>>> 89,893 18.76118 > >>>>>>> $ 37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 30 267 > >>>>>>> 60 $ 2,277.00 $ 27,324.00 $ > >>>>>>> 39,750 17.45718 > >>>>>>> $ 42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 30 367 > >>>>>>> 44 $ 1,874.18 $ 22,490.18 $ > >>>>>>> 32,386 17.28027 > >>>>>>> $ 72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 30 567 > >>>>>>> 28 $ 2,059.76 $ 24,717.18 $ > >>>>>>> 25,456 12.35864 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Monthly Max Subs per > >>>>>>> Sector Monthly ARPU / Annual ARPU / Required CAPEX / ROI > >>>>>>> ARPU kbps Down kbps Up Total kbps Oversubscription > >>>>>>> kbps Required/Sub 16000 loaded sector loaded sector loaded > >>>>>>> sector (months) > >>>>>>> $ 17.95 Essential 500 500 1000 20 50 > >>>>>>> 320 $ 5,744.00 $ 68,928.00 $ > >>>>>>> 156,750 27.28935 > >>>>>>> $ 27.95 Essential+ 2000 800 2800 20 140 > >>>>>>> 114 $ 3,194.29 $ 38,331.43 $ > >>>>>>> 64,179 20.09168 > >>>>>>> $ 37.95 Performance 7000 1000 8000 20 400 > >>>>>>> 40 $ 1,518.00 $ 18,216.00 $ > >>>>>>> 30,750 20.25692 > >>>>>>> $ 42.95 MAX10 10000 1000 11000 20 550 > >>>>>>> 29 $ 1,249.45 $ 14,993.45 $ > >>>>>>> 25,841 20.68175 > >>>>>>> $ 72.95 MAX16 16000 1000 17000 20 850 > >>>>>>> 19 $ 1,373.18 $ 16,478.12 $ > >>>>>>> 21,221 15.45365 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] > >>>> On > >>>>>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett > >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:58 PM > >>>>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2 megs is yesterday's news. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> U-Verse is 18/1.5 > >>>>>>> FiOS is 50/20 > >>>>>>> Charter has 60/5 > >>>>>>> Comcast has 50/10 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2 megs is 36 times faster than 56k. Charter is 30 times faster > than > >>>>>>> that. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Why is the wireless world happy with being 10 years behind the > wired > >>>>>>> world? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ----- > >>>>>>> Mike Hammett > >>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions > >>>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> From: "Kevin Suitor" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 10:42 AM > >>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We have customers worldwide who operate sectors typically with > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> hundreds > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> of residential clients with 2 Mbps downlink / 256 or 512 kbps > uplink > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> some with who run entry level service (by NA standards) of 384 > kbps > >>>>>>>> downlink / 128 kbps uplink that have an average of 250 clients per > >>>>>>>> sector with 6 sectors per BTS in an urban market. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than other MACs used in > >>>>>>>> wireless networking. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Best Regards, > >>>>>>>> Kevin > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected] > >> ] > >>>>>>> On > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett > >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 2:20 PM > >>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> More troll than substance but I wouldn't put more than 30 users on > a > >>>>>>>> WiMAX > >>>>>>>> AP anyway... not enough bandwidth. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ----- > >>>>>>>> Mike Hammett > >>>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions > >>>>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> From: "Jeff Booher" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:28 AM > >>>>>>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> It is not the same gear by any means. Tranzeo's AP is a micro > base > >>>>>>>>> station, > >>>>>>>>> that only supports 30 subscribers. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Jeff > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> [email protected]] > >>>>>>>> On > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:34 PM > >>>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I'm certainly interested in ptmp. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> The Tranzeo gear is the same as Aperto isn't it? > >>>>>>>>> marlon > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> From: "Gino Villarini" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:35 PM > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Ligowave its ptp in 3.65... > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Might wanna look at tranzeo for 3.65 ptmp > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Gino A. Villarini > >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > >>>>>>>>>> tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> [email protected] > >>>> ] > >>>>>>>> On > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Leon Zetekoff > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 9:32 PM > >>>>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi Marlon...I'd look at the Ligowave stuff similar in principle > to > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> UBNT stuff but I think much better. That's what I'd do today. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Take care leon > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Marlon K. Schafer wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> I'm looking into this too. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> So far I can't find a solution for rural towers. A 3 sector > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> install > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> at $20k? Not to service the 20 people that will be able to > even > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> see > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> that tower.... > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Anyone have any better ideas? > >>>>>>>>>>> marlon > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Gino Villarini" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>>>>> To: "Motorola Canopy User Group" <[email protected]>; "WISPA > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> General > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> List" > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 7:55 AM > >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] 2nd Look @ 3.65 ? > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Fellow operators: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Any updates on your experienes with 3.65 gear? PMP and PTP? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Any updates on experiences with: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Redline, Aperto, Tranzeo, Vecima, Alvarion, Ligowave, > Solectek, > >>>>>>>>>>>> Airspan ??? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Gino A. Villarini > >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>>>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. > >>>>>>>>>>>> tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>>>> -------- > >>>>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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