This has been an interesting thread... I cannot help but remember a story that someone told me when I was young.....
As an experiment, a group of blind folks were taken to a Zoo and introduced to an Elephant. Obviously they had never seen one. After the visit they were asked to describe their experience and what they thought an Elephant was. The person who got to touch the Elephant's tail, described the Elephant as a Big Rope, the person who got to touch the Elephant's Legs, described it as Tree Trunk, the person who got to touch the Elephant's trunk , described it as a big flexible hose .... etc. etc. etc. The point of the story is that we all draw our opinions based on our experiences, and for that exact reason it is very important for us all to 'Expand' such experiences by sharing info in such forms as this one. I have been in the technology business for over 20 years, first as a Computer VAR, and then as ISP/NSP Services provider. One thing that we all have to recognize about our industry is that, Electronic & Communications Technology is about the only industry where THERE IS NO SUCH THING as RIGHT OR WRONG...... However we do have industry standards and technical standards.. if you choose not to follow them, then YOU WILL EXPERIENCE IN-CONSISTENT Results. Cisco, Mikrotik, Juniper, Vyatta, PfSense, MonoWall, Linux, etc. etc. are all routing platforms each with their core strengths, claiming anyone of these to be 'THE' products would be a fool's argument. The original thread was about having a network 'IN-CONSISTENCY' on a network that was not designed / setup with 'INDUSTRY STANDARDS', and Frustration was being taken out on a MFG. To me the Key Point out of this Thread is.... Build your network using 'Industry Best Practice', stay withing the Technical Guide Lines, and Choose Your Tools (Routers / Wireless Equipment etc) wisely. Comparing Notes with each other is a great way of learning, so that one does not have to repeat the same mistakes, and expanding horizons. Regards. Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom On 9/21/2010 9:45 AM, Charles n wyble wrote: > I use pfsense as my edge and core router and am happy with it. > > Hoping to turn up the initial socalwifi nodes this weekend. These will back > haul through pfsense. So I will get a better sense of how it scales. > > "Glenn Kelley"<gl...@hostmedic.com> wrote: > >> Tom - >> >> I think no matter what the solution is - it really comes down to the >> following: >> >> a. What you know and can do yourself. >> b. What you can obtain support for for free >> c. What you can obtain support for paid >> d. Overall ROI (free does not mean free ! ) >> >> >> >> I can see your point - we use pfsense in those cases where microtik would >> make sense - >> >> Why - because it is very easy - runs on basically anything that microtik >> would - and the gui is much more user friendly. >> PLUS - the cli makes complete sense - supports full BGP as well as many >> other routing protocols. >> >> We moved from using the more expensive options - like Cisco - and chose >> vyatta simply because their support is next to none. >> We had an issue @ 2AM - and had a call back by 2:15AM by 2:30 we were back >> up and running. >> >> Experience like that with Cisco - or Microtik - well we just have never >> found. >> >> Have you played with pfsense? >> have you played with vyatta? >> >> having used all 3 I can tell you microtik is for me the last choice. >> >> >> >> On Sep 20, 2010, at 11:28 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: >> >>> I have to disagree. Except I'm arguing the opposite on Mikrotik's side. >>> >>> There is nothing free about Vyatta for a commerical WISP. Mikrotik is much >>> much less expensive. Low Price is a major reason to use Mikrotik over >>> Vyatta. >>> I do not mean this as a negative comment about Vyatta, as Vyatta makes a >>> good product and has a strong support team. Its understandable that good >>> people tend to charge for quality support. >>> >>> My point here is that a Commerical ISP would be a fool to use Vyatta Free >>> addition for any serious commercial application. There are many reasons for >>> that. For example, having to wait 6 months for a bug fix is way to long, >>> expecially if its a new BGP vulnerabilty that will crash your BGP within >>> minutes. Or maybe its when you need to upgrade to the next version, and >>> you learn that its not possible to upgrade the FREE version, unless you >>> reload from scratch and reconfigure from scratch, which means lots and lots >>> of long down time for core routers. I'd highly recommend that Providers >>> use the PAID version of Vyatta, if VYatta being used for anything serious. >>> Vyatta license is like $600-$900 per year, NOT $45 for life of next couple >>> versions like MIkrotik offers. >>> >>> I'm just saying, lets keep it real.... Its not fair to compare a >>> non-supported open source old version product (Vyatta) with a commercially >>> supported product (Mikrotik). >>> Vyatta is a premium product (based on support) and they charge accordingly. >>> Mikrotik on the other hand is a value product. I'm not aware of any otehr >>> product on the market that offers a more complete advanced router product >>> for such a low price. Its insane how inexpensive Mikrotik is for what it >>> delivers, in the "router" market. >>> >>> Many argue Vyatta Free edition is fine for a single client appliance. Maybe >>> so. Although, a fast processor Routerboard costs under $100, and w/ Vyatta >>> it will need more expensive PC like hardware which will far exceed teh >>> Mikrotik License costs. So anyway you slice it Vyatta is more expensive. >>> Where Vyatta can compete is on High capacity multi-Gig routers, but at a >>> yearly reoccuring price. >>> >>> Tom DeReggi >>> RapidDSL& Wireless, Inc >>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Dennis Burgess >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 3:58 PM >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] I'm pulling Mikrotik >>> >>> If you look at the two just from a cost perspective, the x86 for Vyatta is >>> Free, RouterOS would be just $45 bucks for their license. FREE vs $45 >>> bucks. Just saying that MT is SO cheap, I would not let that little cost >>> to make a difference in the comparison. >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------- >>> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer >>> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik& WISP Support Services >>> Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net >>> LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training - Author of "Learn RouterOS" >>> >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >>> Behalf Of Glenn Kelley >>> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 2:01 PM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] I'm pulling Mikrotik >>> >>> We use vyatta a great bit - >>> if you want any advice for it - hit me up offlist. >>> >>> Microtik is $$$ vyatta can be - but their opensource is FREE >>> really nice application. >>> >>> >>> On Sep 17, 2010, at 2:55 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote: >>> >>> >>> Vyatta has a cool product line. Their open source version is free. They >>> have a paid product that is much more full-featured. They make most of >>> their money from their support contracts. >>> >>> Jeff >>> ImageStream >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >>> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 1:54 PM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] I'm pulling Mikrotik >>> >>> I guess you're right, appears it is free: >>> >>> http://www.vyatta.com/downloads/index.php >>> >>> Josh Luthman >>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>> 1100 Wayne St >>> Suite 1337 >>> Troy, OH 45373 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Greg Ihnen<os10ru...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Isn't Vyatta for the x86 free? >>> >>> I'm not familiar with OpenWRT, but between dd-WRT and RouterOS it's no >>> contest. RouterOS wins. >>> >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> On Sep 17, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: >>> >>> Several threads have suggests Mikrotik over Vyatta. Cheaper and >>> better. I have not used Vyatta. >>> >>> Josh Luthman >>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>> 1100 Wayne St >>> Suite 1337 >>> Troy, OH 45373 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Fred Goldstein<fgoldst...@ionary.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> At 9/17/2010 12:39 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: >>> Sounds to me like they are not familiar with RouterOS. >>> >>> Mikrotik's RouterOS does just about everything that you can imagine >>> in a layer 2 and layer 3 network device. It does not perform all >>> of these tasks flawlessly, but the platform is more then usable. >>> Just need to watch out for the "gotchas". >>> >>> You're right.. I'm not all that familiar with RouterOS yet. I'm >>> doing the design now and want to make sure that RouterOS can do what >>> I want it to do. Of course there's always OpenWRT or DD-WRT but >>> they don't seem to do as much yet. And RouterOS allows >>> virtualization, so we can presumably test WRT hacks in a virtual >>> partition without bringing down the production net. >>> >>> UBNT has a little CPU too but it just comes with, I think, Kamikaze, >>> and nobody seems to take it seriously. Down on the ground, >>> something bigger like Vyatta should be able to handle all of the >>> real routing load. So I want to take each of the subscriber CPE >>> radios (probably all UBNT) and make each one a VLAN, switched back >>> to the big router that sits near the fiber. This is a little out of >>> the usual "route everywhere" box. >>> >>> Josh Luthman >>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>> 1100 Wayne St >>> Suite 1337 >>> Troy, OH 45373 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Butch Evans<but...@butchevans.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Fri, 2010-09-17 at 11:29 -0400, Fred Goldstein wrote: >>> Glad to hear it's working. My plan is to put a router at the >>> core and run layer 2 beyond. How flexible is RouterOS for >>> setting up lots of VLANs? >>> >>> VERY flexible. >>> >>> http://blog.butchevans.com/2010/02/to-tag-or-not-to-tag-that-is-the >>> -question/ >>> >>> I'm thinking of using HWMP+ to automatically create paths >>> ("route", but not in the IP layer) them across the network >>> ("mesh", in the literal topological sense). Thanks... >>> >>> Mikrotik's Mesh is working, but it's not a "great" solution just yet. >>> Mesh is one of those things that MT "also does", if you catch my >>> drift. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ****************************************************************** >>> ** >>> * Butch Evans * Professional Network >>> Consultation* >>> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering >>> * >>> * http://store.wispgear.net/ * Wired or Wireless Networks >>> * >>> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE! >>> * >>> ****************************************************************** >>> ** >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------------- >>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------------- >>> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>> >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ------------- >>> WISPA Wants You! 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