Coming from enterprise & wireline side of the business. Let me share with you something that we have seen with most of our customers.
I personally think that 'providing' a router as part of a 'managed' service is a much better business proposition for ISP/NSP/WISP's than 'selling' them a router. (Again a bunch of If's And's or But's Apply). We have consistently found that 80% to 90 % of business customer will take us up on Managed Router Service for $50 to $75/month than to purchase and maintain their own router. We make the deal sweeter, by offering, 24x7 Monitoring, Free Configuration Changes, and ON-Site Replacement in-case of something going poof. Typically with such a service, the client is no longer concerned about the Brand or Model of the Router, they prefer to see the CISCO name on the box, that is visible in their computer room.... Having said that, we have a number of 2600 Series Routers out in field as part of Managed Router Service, connected to T1's. These go for song on the secondary markets. The value proposition for the Customers is Very High on this, most of them really don't care so about the latest and greatest, the folks who write the checks are only interested in knowing .... "IF there is a Problem, You are going to make the problem go away" ... and the only thing I will have to pay for is the Monthly Manged Service Charge ! Customers are Happy, We are Happy...... Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom On 9/21/2010 12:57 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: > I have not played with PFSense, but we have played with and recommend > Vyatta. > I think very highly of both the Vyatta product and the Vyatta support. > I also like Vyatta because there is no limits on hardware flexibility. I > dont like when other manufacturers lock me down to specific hardware > thats not off the shelf, or that is handicappingly slow when a massive > CPE or RAM can be had for a few dollars on the open market. > Again, my point being.... The most valuable benefits of Vyatta, in my > opinion are not ones that are offered for Free. > But I think we agree on that concept. > Vyatta Free edition is a good open source starting point for those that > are well versed with Debian Linux at the programing and compiling type > level. > For those that are able to manage their own distro Tree, and make their > own fixes, they probably will do just fine with the open source FREE > product. > I just believe that most commercial WISPs are not in a position where > its cost effective to manage the source. I can give an example of > OpenWRT and MAd Wifi. > Some unique people are happy to see that combination. But How many WISPs > are self maintaining the distro, and how many realized Just buying > UBNT's latest AirMax version was much more cost effective in the long > run. I look at Vyatta the same way. For some, Vyatta Free will be fine. > I will also say that Vyatta has matured pretty nicely in its later > versions, so its pretty effective as is. > It really depends on the target customer. I just had a case where I > quoted a customer a great price on TWO redundant Linux routers, each > capable of about 4gb throughput. > We also looked at Vyatta and Image stream as manufacturer supported > platforms. At first they chose the two routers I offered. But at the end > of the day, they got scared, and bought a single CISCO router, at twice > the price, that was used, and had max throughout of about 100mb. Why? It > all came down to the fact that the customer had to interact with their > own customers. They'd never get critisized for saying, "we use Cisco" > your technicain and our technicain should be able to supprot this > because we use a trusted standard. It all came down to who were the > options for maintaining the router. Could the company's own staff be > knowledgeable enough to maintain their own routers? > From my perspective its all easy. But from the customer's perspective > its not always as easy. What do they know about Linux? They do know that > both their ADmin had Cisco training in School, they also know many of > their clietns had techs that took Cisco classes in school. Go to your > local university and look at teh Computer NEtworking degree corriculum, > and the class will be structured around Cisco. What happens if I get hit > by a bus? Whats it going to cost them? How quickly can they find someone? > My point being the right router choice isn't as much a factor of who the > tech provider is, but instead who the customer is. Its all perception. > For example, in my mind, if I put a linux router in and it breaks, > nothing is stopping me from installing a Cisco tommorrow, there is no > risk in using Linux today. And so many people already use Linux and dont > even know it. (firewall appliances, soho rotuers, etc). But a customer > gets scared of change and scared about what they dont know. And then you > ahve all the third party support techs that earn their living on helping > the custmer, that might encourage the customer to go the other way. When > there are so many solutions out there that have good commerical support, > not just open sopurce support, man y customers just dont buight on open > source products that aren't supported. > I know, I'm saying things that go against everything that I beleive in > and push. We are 100% a Linux shop. Been using Linux routers since day > one, we love them. > I'm just learning that I no longer have the person bandwidth to help > every one all the time anymore. And I cant afford to add the salary of > the person that could help out. > I say, let the end user pay for it. Pitch "supported" solutions. So then > I can support them if I want to, but if I dont have the time, I can > point them to somewhere that can. > What I dont like about Vyatta is that they are the epitome of both no > support or the the best support. If I refer my customers to Paid Vyatta > product, I loose all the T&M billing I could get for helping the > cusotmer myself. Why would the customer call me, if they already pain > Vyatta $600-$900 per year under contract? I dont want to give my revenue > and business to Vyatta. Then on the Free edition, well its more to > support than I want to signup for, because there is now liabilty. IF > something needs to be fixed fast, I may not be in the position to fix it > in that Emergency, when I dont have the right to support. > So my point is... Vyatta is nice, but how does that help me make money > from my customers? > I guess I could also support Vyatta, just like a Cisco CNA supports a > customer that has a Cisco router that has a Cisco maintenance contract. > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Glenn Kelley <mailto:gl...@hostmedic.com> > *To:* WISPA General List <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 21, 2010 12:04 AM > *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] I'm pulling Mikrotik > > Tom - > > I think no matter what the solution is - it really comes down to the > following: > > a. What you know and can do yourself. > b. What you can obtain support for for free > c. What you can obtain support for paid > d. Overall ROI (free does not mean free ! ) > > > > I can see your point - we use pfsense in those cases where microtik > would make sense - > > Why - because it is very easy - runs on basically anything that > microtik would - and the gui is much more user friendly. > PLUS - the cli makes complete sense - supports full BGP as well as > many other routing protocols. > > We moved from using the more expensive options - like Cisco - and > chose vyatta simply because their support is next to none. > We had an issue @ 2AM - and had a call back by 2:15AM by 2:30 we > were back up and running. > > Experience like that with Cisco - or Microtik - well we just have > never found. > > Have you played with pfsense? > have you played with vyatta? > > having used all 3 I can tell you microtik is for me the last choice. > > > > On Sep 20, 2010, at 11:28 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote: > >> I have to disagree. Except I'm arguing the opposite on Mikrotik's >> side. >> There is nothing free about Vyatta for a commerical WISP. Mikrotik >> is much much less expensive. Low Price is a major reason to use >> Mikrotik over Vyatta. >> I do not mean this as a negative comment about Vyatta, as Vyatta >> makes a good product and has a strong support team. Its >> understandable that good people tend to charge for quality support. >> My point here is that a Commerical ISP would be a fool to use >> Vyatta Free addition for any serious commercial application. There >> are many reasons for that. For example, having to wait 6 months >> for a bug fix is way to long, expecially if its a new BGP >> vulnerabilty that will crash your BGP within minutes. Or maybe its >> when you need to upgrade to the next version, and you learn that >> its not possible to upgrade the FREE version, unless you reload >> from scratch and reconfigure from scratch, which means lots and >> lots of long down time for core routers. I'd highly recommend that >> Providers use the PAID version of Vyatta, if VYatta being used for >> anything serious. >> Vyatta license is like $600-$900 per year, NOT $45 for life of >> next couple versions like MIkrotik offers. >> I'm just saying, lets keep it real.... Its not fair to compare a >> non-supported open source old version product (Vyatta) with a >> commercially supported product (Mikrotik). >> Vyatta is a premium product (based on support) and they charge >> accordingly. Mikrotik on the other hand is a value product. I'm >> not aware of any otehr product on the market that offers a more >> complete advanced router product for such a low price. Its insane >> how inexpensive Mikrotik is for what it delivers, in the "router" >> market. >> Many argue Vyatta Free edition is fine for a single client >> appliance. Maybe so. Although, a fast processor Routerboard costs >> under $100, and w/ Vyatta it will need more expensive PC like >> hardware which will far exceed teh Mikrotik License costs. So >> anyway you slice it Vyatta is more expensive. Where Vyatta can >> compete is on High capacity multi-Gig routers, but at a yearly >> reoccuring price. >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Dennis Burgess <mailto:dmburg...@linktechs.net> >> *To:* WISPA General List <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, September 17, 2010 3:58 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] I'm pulling Mikrotik >> >> If you look at the two just from a cost perspective, the x86 >> for Vyatta is Free, RouterOS would be just $45 bucks for their >> license. FREE vs $45 bucks. Just saying that MT is SO cheap, I >> would not let that little cost to make a difference in the >> comparison. >> *----------------------------------------------------------- >> **_Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer_** >> **Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services >> Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net >> <http://www.linktechs.net/> >> */LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training >> <http://www.onlinemikrotiktraining.com/> - Author of "Learn >> RouterOS" <http://routerosbook.com/>/* >> *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org >> <mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org> >> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Kelley >> *Sent:* Friday, September 17, 2010 2:01 PM >> *To:* WISPA General List >> *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] I'm pulling Mikrotik >> We use vyatta a great bit - >> if you want any advice for it - hit me up offlist. >> Microtik is $$$ vyatta can be - but their opensource is FREE >> really nice application. >> On Sep 17, 2010, at 2:55 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists wrote: >> >> >> Vyatta has a cool product line. Their open source version is >> free. They >> have a paid product that is much more full-featured. They make >> most of >> their money from their support contracts. >> >> Jeff >> ImageStream >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org >> <mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org> >> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2010 1:54 PM >> To: WISPA General List >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] I'm pulling Mikrotik >> >> I guess you're right, appears it is free: >> >> http://www.vyatta.com/downloads/index.php >> >> Josh Luthman >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> 1100 Wayne St >> Suite 1337 >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Greg Ihnen >> <os10ru...@gmail.com <mailto:os10ru...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Isn't Vyatta for the x86 free? >> >> I'm not familiar with OpenWRT, but between dd-WRT and >> RouterOS it's no >> >> contest. RouterOS wins. >> >> Greg >> >> On Sep 17, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: >> >> Several threads have suggests Mikrotik over Vyatta. >> Cheaper and >> >> better. I have not used Vyatta. >> >> Josh Luthman >> >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> >> 1100 Wayne St >> >> Suite 1337 >> >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Fred Goldstein >> <fgoldst...@ionary.com <mailto:fgoldst...@ionary.com>> >> >> wrote: >> >> At 9/17/2010 12:39 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: >> >> Sounds to me like they are not familiar with >> RouterOS. >> >> Mikrotik's RouterOS does just about everything >> that you can imagine >> >> in a layer 2 and layer 3 network device. It >> does not perform all >> >> of these tasks flawlessly, but the platform is >> more then usable. >> >> Just need to watch out for the "gotchas". >> >> You're right.. I'm not all that familiar with >> RouterOS yet. I'm >> >> doing the design now and want to make sure that >> RouterOS can do what >> >> I want it to do. Of course there's always OpenWRT >> or DD-WRT but >> >> they don't seem to do as much yet. And RouterOS allows >> >> virtualization, so we can presumably test WRT >> hacks in a virtual >> >> partition without bringing down the production net. >> >> UBNT has a little CPU too but it just comes with, >> I think, Kamikaze, >> >> and nobody seems to take it seriously. Down on the >> ground, >> >> something bigger like Vyatta should be able to >> handle all of the >> >> real routing load. So I want to take each of the >> subscriber CPE >> >> radios (probably all UBNT) and make each one a >> VLAN, switched back >> >> to the big router that sits near the fiber. This >> is a little out of >> >> the usual "route everywhere" box. >> >> Josh Luthman >> >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> >> 1100 Wayne St >> >> Suite 1337 >> >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Butch Evans >> <but...@butchevans.com >> <mailto:but...@butchevans.com>> >> >> wrote: >> >> On Fri, 2010-09-17 at 11:29 -0400, Fred >> Goldstein wrote: >> >> Glad to hear it's working. My plan is >> to put a router at the >> >> core and run layer 2 beyond. How >> flexible is RouterOS for >> >> setting up lots of VLANs? >> >> VERY flexible. >> >> >> http://blog.butchevans.com/2010/02/to-tag-or-not-to-tag-that-is-the >> >> -question/ >> >> I'm thinking of using HWMP+ to >> automatically create paths >> >> ("route", but not in the IP layer) >> them across the network >> >> ("mesh", in the literal topological >> sense). Thanks... >> >> Mikrotik's Mesh is working, but it's not a >> "great" solution just yet. >> >> Mesh is one of those things that MT "also >> does", if you catch my >> >> drift. >> >> -- >> >> >> ****************************************************************** >> >> ** >> >> * Butch Evans * Professional Network >> >> Consultation* >> >> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network >> Engineering >> >> * >> >> * http://store.wispgear.net/ * Wired or >> Wireless Networks >> >> * >> >> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * >> ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE! >> >> * >> >> >> ****************************************************************** >> >> ** >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ------------- >> >> WISPA Wants You! 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